Author Topic: Third OPEN debate: Addressing the anti-fossil fuel lobby in Mundus  (Read 6263 times)

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Offline Markus

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Third OPEN debate: Addressing the anti-fossil fuel lobby in Mundus


The meeting is the first since the recent expansion of the organization which saw the Kingdom of Clysperis joining. All four members of the organization: the Emirate of Royal Seleucid, Empire of Tamora, Empire of Quintelia and Kingdom of Clysperis are expected to attend.


The VP of OPEN Thanasis Polakis, with the full support of the Tamoran government, invited the members of OPEN to debate in the OPEN HQ in Ipsus (Royal Seleucid) what Thanasis Polakis and by extension Tamora viewed as a threat to the organization as well as the economy of the member states. Officially described to the press as a meeting about “The future and risks of the Oil and Gas Industry of Mundus”, behind closed doors the debate was described as addressing the anti-fossil fuel lobby and sentiment growing in Mundus.

The meeting to which all OPEN members were invited was publicly announced to the press but would be held behind close doors allowing the participants to speak freely and should they agree a press statement would be issue afterwards about the results of the talks.
 
Since the meeting was called by the Tamoran side, Mr. Thanasis Polakis opened the talks:

“Ladies and gentlemen, first allow me to thank you for attending this meeting. I have asked you to convene to discuss and hopefully propose a course of action regarding what Tamora sees as a growing threat in Mundus for OPEN: the anti-fossil fuel lobby and the hold it has on many governments all over Mundus. Just a few days ago we have seen the Odinic rite of Nya Aland start a campaign which aims to “get rid of fossil fuels by 2020”. Last year, we have seen the adoption of “The Environmental Treaty of Wellow” which aims and let me quote:

“4. Remove all fossil fuelled road vehicles by 2030
8. Nations with a GDP per capita of $40,000 or more to produce at least 70% of their electricity from non-fossil fuel sources by 2050. Nations with a GDP per capita lower than $40,000 to aim for 50% by 2060.”

All these initiatives and I just quoted only two examples: one purely national, another with international reach numbering among its signatories even a member of OPEN, the Empire of Quintelia, have several things in common: they aim to force consumers to choose something else than fossils fuels (whether it’s through quotas, extra taxes, subsidies) and heavily favor green alternatives by providing subsidies or outright banning other alternatives. The effect of those measures are a lower demand of oil and gas, lower prices for oil and gas, jobs losses in the oil and gas industry throughout OPEN member countries, lower tax revenues for our governments( depending on each member's method of taxation of course) and lower influence of the whole OPEN organization. I would also add that in many OPEN member countries the oil and gas industry is one of the few industries that keep our best minds in their countries and helps stop the brain drain. Should this industry suffer the brain drain phenomenon will only worsen and our nations would lose precious talent that will go aboard to work for other countries. Now I understand of course that protecting the environment is important, I also understand that it is the right of each country including member states of OPEN to set their own energy agendas. This meeting is not meant as an attack on the governments of the countries that pursue a “green agenda” but to discuss and see if there is something that can be done to also help the oil and gas industry, the hundreds of thousands of jobs it employs thought OPEN member countries, the billions of investments and the billions they produce for the government budgets.

With your permission I would like to propose for further discussion two measures. Of course, each member can also add their ideas for discussion.
 
1.   Establishing an international lobby group, funded by the governments of OPEN, that will seek to participate in debates regarding international initiatives such as The Environmental Treaty of Wellow and present the point of the view of the Oil and Gas industry. That would include presenting how much being “free of fossil fuel” would cost the economies not just in subsidies but also lost jobs. It would also lobby to governments and international organizations to let the consumers choose so it will argue against banning products: cars etc as being both undemocratic and against consumer choice.
2.   Provide help for our own Oil and Gas industries to innovate by providing tax breaks for them if they spend on R&D. Few industries in OPEN member economies spend so much of R&D as oil and gas so it would be a shame to not level the plain field by giving tax breaks to an industry that is hammered by taxes and restrictions in so many Mundus countries. 


So with your permission I would like to hear each member’s opinion on the matter, to see if there is agreement that there is indeed a threat to the organization. Also,I would greatly appreciate it if members could share their opinions on whether the proposals put forward by the Empire of Tamora are reasonable and would be supported, and any other comments or amendments you may wish to make.

Thank you."

Spoiler: OOC • show


The meeting is behind closed doors so members can talk freely. Other players wouldn’t know what is being discussed.
Feel free to say whatever you want regarding the oil and gas industry, ideas about how to stop the green lobby or be against the whole idea of the meeting to begin with.
I assumed the first meeting was the Slavan embargo and the second the proposal to name President and VP of OPEN so this would be the third. 


Offline DaveIronside

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"It is the belief of Royal Seleucid that the green agenda is one that is being driven by a science community driven by its data which we do not argue the accuracy of. However a balance must be struck between the economic, environmental and quality of life of the people of Mundus. At present the average electric is around $22,000, now while this will fall over the next few years it is still a price well beyond those of the average person. Add to this the fact that bans on petrol cars will effectively put an end to the second hand car market and in the short term that nations such as Nya Aland are talking their will not be the supplies avaliable thus the metric of supply and demand will ensure the average man in the street will be unable to afford to own their own car. This is even before we consider the impact these millions of extra electric cars will have on the power grids of nations barely able to sustain their energy needs for a growing population let alone a growing population with millions more electric cars needing topping up with power regularly. Infastructure does not exist and will cost nations millions, and that money could come through taxing our products, therefore by not banning petrol products nations can begin to make a sensible transition to electric cars while at the same time off setting the funding of it. Now I believe these are the kind of arguements we should be making. The issue is I believe the liberal press outside of Midaranye will crucify us for this argument. I therefore think we should  utilise the funds we talked about putting aside for research into some kind of major project to show that we too are looking at solving the fossil fuel reliance. Now if we play it right we can then hopefully come up with something we can patent as an organisation and share the profits of, helping us sustain our organisation and our economies into the future. Therefore Royal Seleucid fully support the ideas put forward by our Tamoran colleague. I would also ask should we consider using.....private funds.....to support the political campaigns of more right minded thinking politicians not intent on dragging their nation to disaster by their stance of rushing to greener energy at no matter the cost."

Offline Markus

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"I would like to thank my RS colleague for the analysis and for the support for the proposals put forward by Tamora. I believe we are on the same page though I would argue that for our part we are not so trustful of the green agenda as to believe it is driven solely by data from the scientific community and is in fact heavily influenced by the multitude of green businesses that exist on the market only because of the subsidies and regulations they get from governments. These businesses heavily lobby for more subsidies and more privileges for them by hyping the green agenda. But this meeting is not about them. As my RS colleague said there needs to be voice making arguments such as the ones the RS colleague presented. They are arguments not only deeply rooted in reality but they are also not against the “trend” of the green agenda so the lobby group we proposed would make arguments such as these."

"I would also like to thank our RS colleague for the idea of using private funds to help promote candidates that down to earth when it comes to the green agenda.For our part, we will make sure that Tamoran individuals with interests on the matter will contribute to this necessary endeavor. "

"Do any of the other colleagues present want to make any comments or express their views regarding the two proposals put forward by Tamora and the complementary one presented by RS that will involve only private funds however? "

Offline Lady Amaya

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OOC: Is it possible to send a Daalish observer since Tauredalia hasn't officially joined OPEN yet? Aredal and Liinaw would like to align their interests with the organization, even if they can't yet apply for membership.

Offline Markus

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OOC: We are ok with Tauradelia having an observer that is here on the invitation of Tamora (to give a reason IC that is). We will assume that this observer would sing some non disclosure agreement as to not leak to the press what is being discussed behind closed doors. Feel free to jump in.

Offline Lady Amaya

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"First off, we would like to thank everyone present for allowing us to observe this meeting as we sadly cannot convince our national compatriots to officially join this august organization...yet.

"Secondly, I would like to point out a deeper problem that RS only touched on: we do not have the funds to convert to 'green' power, no matter how much we might want to. The average consumer in our Confederation buys a used car shipped from a better off nation. When these nations ditch the gasoline-powered vehicle for electricity, they will also disrupt the supply chain. We, and other nations like us, will have limited options when it comes to refueling as the world infrastructure shifts.

"There are also limited options when it comes to mass transit of goods. How many electric-powered trains and tractor trailers do you know of? As the RS representative stated, this will cost millions of dollars to affect change. A slower pace would be preferable.

"This brings us to our second point: if we slow this shift enough, it allows us to use our capital to 'invest' in new green power and monopolize those markets as well. Fossil fuels will eventually run out, but we can maintain the status quo by controlling how the world receives power."

Offline Markus

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"I would like to thank the Daalish representative for the input. I believe both the Daalish representative and the RS one seem to suggest that we also consider a strategy more akin to “if we can’t beat them, join them” in that as we attempt to curve the “enthusiasm” of the green agenda and buy some time as we ourselves keep investing more in green technology and hopefully manage to be a leader in the field giving us the chance to transition as an organization to a green economy.

I am personally not a fan of the idea of joining the green hype for several reasons. First, and I believe this is particular to Tamora, our oil and gas company is made of around a hundred businesses all of them private. The Tamoran government can’t force them to heavily invest in green technology. Second, and I take ni pleasure in saying this,  I believe we have lost that chance. The other governments are way ahead of us and it’s in our view a competition we have few chances to win or if we do win it will be at a huge financial cost. Thirdly, there are other alternatives for us than betting on green technology. Years ago in my nation's governments have started setting aside money for a rainy days. As years went by these wealth funds have increased in both assets and numbers. I believe this is a much flexible strategy:OPEN member countries to start saving or for those already doing, start to save more and put their money aside in these wealth funds that invest both home and even aboard in various fields which can include green technology but also infrastructure, IT, agriculture, real-estate etc.

Please do not interpret my reluctance to join the green hype as me blocking motions to do just that. I am open to any suggestions if any of the members or observers present would like to presents proposals. Tamora is committed to work with its OPEN partners and if there is a desire to also pursue such a strategy we will share the burden. "

Offline Beatrice

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"The green hype ship has sailed unfortunately, as stated by our Tamoran friends. Through savings and wise investments we can pursue a well-rounded approach rather than aiming our full energies at playing catch-up to entrenched green technologies. I have noted, however, that some view natural gas with less apprehension than its counterparts. This may offer an opportunity to provide a 'bridge' so to say; "less dirty" natural gas to power fleets of vehicles, power plants, homes, etc."

Beatrice Anselmo
Grand Chancellor of the Independent Order
Empress of the First Empire of Rokkenjima

Factbook of the First Empire of Rokkenjima - Kingdom of Clysperis

Offline DaveIronside

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"If the hype ship has sailed then we must be captain of it. We have been looking for opportunities one idea we have been passing around back home is a Gigafactory. A major production facility for battery packs capable of being used in electric cars. I suggest we perhaps expand this into an OPEN concern. We build it on the boarder of Royal Seleucid and Tamora and it will when open employ around 3,000 people in a mixture of roles. I further suggest we attach a R&D department to the project. We will create a buzz around such a large project which will go a long way with the green agenda, it will also help diversify our economies and make us a healthy profit. We would naturally permit investment from all OPEN nations, infact we should establish a company called OPEN Power....or something and this will allow us to compete with global markets. Lets put some of this black gold to work for us in the long term." 

Offline Markus

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I see our Seleucid friends are not prepared to give up on trying to beat them on their own game. Our position remains the same, we are reluctant to engage in this spending game but we will do our part and support the factory as well as the R&D center but we will be expecting to eventually see a profit.

As for the OPEN company that will handle green investments we would also be willing to support it. I assume the shares will be divided equally among the participating nations and the initial capital would have to be proportional to the share ownership. (ooc: if a country owns 20% then it needs to provide 20% of the initial capital).  Is my assumption correct? We would also like for each nation to have flexibility in allocating the shares so for example, we would like for the Tamoran shares to actually he given to businesses rather than the government, other member countries would be free to have their shares remain with their respective governments of course.   

Offline DaveIronside

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Re: Third OPEN debate: Addressing the anti-fossil fuel lobby in Mundus
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2019, 10:52:38 PM »
"My proposal is that initially each member of OPEN shall be allocated 25% to Tamora, Royal Seleucid , Quintelia and Clysperis. That is on the assumption that each nations finds 25% of the construction costs. The 25% shares shall be handed over to the government of that nation to distribute how they see fit. So for example should Quintelia wish to auction them off to private investors in order to secure funds while keeping 5% themselves then that is up to them. Should however a nation not be willing or find itself unable to contribute 25% of the cost then the other nations may find the short fall but assume control of those shares. So for example should Royal Seleucid find only 20% of the funding then Tamora could, if they wish buy our missing 5%. I think this is the fairest way of doing this. The total start up cost should be some $1billion and is expected to be able to produce enough batteries to provide 150 GWh/yr of battery power, enough to run 1.5million cars. It is estimated that around $100billion  could be made in two decades. So for a $250million investment we could end up making $25billion each back. Now should we be able to also innovate new ideas around the production we may earn even more."

OOC- Figures based on Tesla's Gigafactory in Nevada.

Offline Markus

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Re: Third OPEN debate: Addressing the anti-fossil fuel lobby in Mundus
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2019, 07:35:56 AM »
"I do not share the optimism of my Seleucid friend and by 100 billion dinars/usd and I assume you mean revenue rather than income since such a return on investment has never been heard before. That being said, we support the plan and are pleased with the flexibility regarding the allocation of shares. So Tamora supports the proposal."

Offline Markus

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Re: Third OPEN debate: Addressing the anti-fossil fuel lobby in Mundus
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2019, 06:39:23 PM »
Since I see the other members have no further comments on this, let’s put this to a vote. These are the proposals, please state which if any do you support:


1. Establish an international lobby group, funded by the governments of OPEN, that will seek to participate in debates regarding international initiatives that affect the oil and gas industry.
2. Members states to provide tax breaks to oil companies for R&D. Each member state will decide the amount of these tax breaks in accordance with its own tax laws and priorities.   
3. Member states agree to fund the construction of a 1bln USD factory for battery packs for electronic cars. The factory will be built on the Tamora-RS border.


Tamora votes in favor of all three proposals.
Furthermore, the Tamoran government will see to it that private funds will be used to fund political campaign of politicians that are favorable to the oil and gas industry. This does not involve OPEN or its funds in anyway.   

Offline DaveIronside

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Re: Third OPEN debate: Addressing the anti-fossil fuel lobby in Mundus
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2019, 10:03:26 PM »
Proposal 1 - RS votes in favour
Proposal 2 - RS Votes in favour
Proposal 3 - RS votes in favour

Offline Major Jaws

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Re: Third OPEN debate: Addressing the anti-fossil fuel lobby in Mundus
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2019, 07:38:20 AM »
"Quintelia votes in favour on all proposals, however, I think my good friends in Dalton Motors would love to have a chat with whoever is leading the construction and operations of the factory." Esteban Dizon, the first born son of Omarelle Dizon, finally spoke.

Offline DaveIronside

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Re: Third OPEN debate: Addressing the anti-fossil fuel lobby in Mundus
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2019, 02:01:18 PM »
"Regarding the "chat" with Dalton Motors it depends on what the conversation is about. It is my hope that the factory will not be tied to a single automotive company and will therefore be free to sell our products to whoever wishes. Therefore if Dalton wish to discuss buying batteries from the new enterprise then I'd be delighted to entertain them. IF it is to be involved in the manufacture process I would argue against it."

Offline Markus

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Re: Third OPEN debate: Addressing the anti-fossil fuel lobby in Mundus
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2019, 10:12:48 PM »
OOC: Since Major Jaws is on LOA, we can assume the meeting is concluded and proceed to implement what has been voted.