Author Topic: The Great MICA Sort Out  (Read 2406 times)

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Offline Yolotan

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2022, 05:51:05 PM »
The Kingdom of Vaguzia also supports the proposal

Offline DaveIronside

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2022, 06:42:42 PM »
With the Heyran and Vaguzian support it was sorted, Eskdale was now too a member of the organisation, all be it one with three voices but one vote. The next part of the discussion was going to be the tricky one. "The next matter is one I think will provoke more discussion. We have with us Queen Siora from Awhaele. Her nation has a unique position, on the one hand it is close to Alba Karinya and the North end of the Illumic, some would argue not truly in the Illumic. They are a people who have lived in peace with us their southern neighbours and to the best of our knowledge never had an angry word with any of us. But then there is the potential problem that Awhaelele is a land that owes a deep connection to Achkaerin. Perhaps it is best if Queen Siora explains her people's situation and how they think it best fits within the organisation."

Offline Nova

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2022, 09:18:19 AM »
« I do not see it as much tricky, as more being… Controversial may one say » commented Therz as to clarify the matter in her opinion, « I do consider however that the Kingdom of Heimney, to be a more suitable and urgent matter to be addressed, alongside being more efficient as to address, if we were to grant them the floor » she suggested, as after all the Heimney delegate have been most quiet, and could only observe everything unveil… And there was true potential for a membership in Therz’s eyes, where the achkaerinese one or even an agreement, would be far lengthy and demanding in terms of “deal”, specially given the tensions they had created against Zimalia with their unfair treatment and her clear position.
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Offline Altona

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2022, 07:35:45 PM »
OOC- With Hassfurt having changed I propose we move onto Aweahle while we wait to see if Heimney goes for membership

Offline Heimney

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2022, 07:52:15 PM »
OOC
Please consider Heimney has applied

Offline DaveIronside

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2022, 07:14:14 PM »
OOC - To help keep this moving I'm going to say if by the end of Wednesday no one has opposed Heimney joining or wants to ask them anything they are in and we can get down to Awahle.


Offline DaveIronside

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2022, 07:17:43 PM »
David was pleased with how things were going. So far three new members to MICA, Eskdale, Altona and now Heimney. It was time now for things to turn to Awhaele. "With the obvious inductions of members we now have the more complex matter of Awhaele. I will admit that prior to this meeting I've meet with them to discuss this meeting and I made clear that I had a major concern and was given some verbal assurances that these could be overcome. I though think it important that the rest of you feel free to voice your concerns and questions to the Queen and make your own determination as to what we should do. Obviously Her Majesty may wish to speak more openly first" David said having threw the floor open to his guest.

Offline Altona

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2022, 09:50:36 PM »
"If I may intervene" King Rutger spoke up. " I have several concerns with Awhaele being a member of this organisation. The charter states one of the aims of MICA is "To live in peace with their fellow Mhorish and Illumic nations, solving disputes peacefully and swiftly." Until July 2020 the island was not the sovereign territory of Achkaerin and with a population that's majority wise made of Achkaerinese and Vaguzian nationals it stands to reason that this is in effect a colonisation of the Illumic rather than a native nation applying to join. Add to this the statements made in August 2020 when Achkaerin proposed to take unilateral action in the Illumic on a matter that was at the time being dealt with by MICA nations, namely East Moreland and several others. This action aimed to tarnish all Zimalian vessels as involved in human trafficing despite their also being ships flagged in many other nations being involved. This smacks of not being a willing partner in the region and as has happened with other foreign nations in the region an attempt to impose their desires on our homeland. I therefore would be forced to vote against Awhaele's admission as we are not admitting the Faejeon people who are native to the island we are in fact admitting the Holy Empire of Achkaerin and that brings with it baggage, first of their CSTO alleigances, an alliance that will send a carrier fleet anywhere at the drop of a hat and then months later seeks to draw back on their rash actions. Add to that we are potentially giving the CSU a backdoor into what could, as King David explained, be one of the strongest economic blocks on Mundus despite the fact their national economies are largely dominated by megacorporations therefore potentially overwhelming local economies if we grant carpet access. I would therefore ask  Queen Siora whether first of all she has authority to make a decision about the involvement in MICA or will that be Emperor Peter. I would also like to know how she would suggest us ensuring the CSTO and CSU problem I have described don't impact our region."   

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2022, 04:08:50 AM »
Siora paused as she collected her thoughts, however it was Vivian who sensing the young Queen's tension and not being overly impressed spoke first.

"The overwhelming majority of the Awhaele population are Illumic natives by which I mean born on Awhaele, educated on Awhaele, living on Awhaele. If anything Awhaele has been the victim, the victim of a cultural genocide and a whole lot more, many Faejeon will tell you that our chance to be a united nation was stolen centuries ago, a peace guaranteed by those who sheltered us kept us alive. I will say that when the referendum happened independence was on the ballot and lost not because the Faejeon were outnumbered, truth be told we're the largest group by proportion at 48% of the population, but because a majority of an Illumic native population exercised their right to self determination and voted for what they wanted, and I hope none of you will seek to use that exercising of democratic choice to slam the door.

In terms of King Rutger's points I would like to just clarify something, my understanding based on conversations I've had and meetings I've been involved in is that the government of Achkaerin sent notice to MICA of action it was proposing in response to events that had seen citizens living on its sovereign territory kidnapped, specifically the intent to stop and search vessels travelling to Zimalia that it had reasonable grounds to believe were being used in human trafficking - that's regardless of the flag they fly. The providing of such notice gave two responses, first from MICA essentially saying "We'd rather you didn't do that, we're handling with it, let us get things in place and we'll keep you in the loop." and secondly from Zimalia reminding Achkaerin of the FSC provision that requires payment of compensation for inconvenience caused by what was proposed. The end result of that communication exchange was that Achkaerin didn't implement the proposal, to my mind that's peaceful cooperation and swiftly dealing with the issue[1] and I would remind everyone that there's no agreement anywhere that requires MICA to be given that advance notice. This highlights to some extent the issue we came here to address."

While Vivian had been speaking, Siora had been thinking through how to answer Rutger's two questions "The question about authority was something I discussed with King David, the answer is that Awhaele is a devolved province in much the same way as the constituent kingdoms of Eskdale are, I am in that analogy the equivalent of one of the monarchs of one of the three kingdoms and Emperor Peter is the Overseer, by which I mean there is a limit on my authority in the day to day sense, my signature on devolved legislation is the equivalent of the Emperors, but obviously there are areas that are not devolved typically speaking and here we're talking about the defence area. I doubt it comes as any surprise that I can't declare war for example or give certain orders as I'm not commander in chief of the Achkaerinese military, this particular issue was in my opinion at least the more problematic one, because while under the devolution terms we can satisfy large amounts of the authority point, we couldn't satisfy the military side. So what we came up with is what we're calling the 'MICA Scope Protocol' this would see my authority expanded to be that of commander in chief of Achkaerinese forces stationed on Awhaele if it were for MICA purposes such as the training exercises commitment. So if we got to the point at the end of this where Awhaele's status in respect of MICA is resolved with Awhaele in decision making then the buck stops with me as the saying goes.

In regards to your Cross-Straits problem, the backdoor you're talking about has existed for many years before today through East Moreland's trade agreement with the CSU and I'm fairly certain that the amendment you passed at the start of this meeting closed it, my only addition to that would be to define the 'MICA region' in geographic terms as the Illumic Channel and Mhorish Sea. In terms of the CSTO, don't confuse the organisation with one particular member of it, there are four members and they all do things differently. There are two scenarios which see certain CSTO involvement in this region, an attack on Awhaele or an attack on Rishiri either of those triggers the CSTO provision, just as an attack in East Moreland brings the CNN into the region. Passage through the region and such is governed under COIN and the FSC I believe, ultimately though if you want a guarantee you should be talking to the CSTO themselves."
 1. OOC - I would assume that as Hassfurt was not a MICA member that the associated information leak did not happen.

Offline Altona

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2022, 05:37:57 PM »
"I'm afraid I am still left with questions and concerns." Rutger began. "You state you don't want the exercising of democratic choice to slam the door but making choices comes with consequences. We are today not being asked to admit Awhaele and the Faejeon people into MICA. We are being asked to admit Achkaerin for you are their sovereign territory and Peter the Emperor over you. Surely when debating the referendum it must have been clear that with East Moreland's stance on ensuring the Illumic is best governed by the people there was always going to cast doubt on what would otherwise have been a straight forward admission. You're now asking us to have an Emperor from the opposite side of Mundus have equal say over what happens in this region as those of us who are natives. That is a choice your people made and as such a choice they must now live with. As for the FSC a nation that places such great weight on such a document shouldn't need reminders of how it works after making a policy. Now as you try and compare yourself to Eskdale it is worth reminding you that while you may have a similar arrangement to the the three monarchs there each of those monarchs represents a land within the Illumic and overseen by a leader from the Illumic. You're circumstances are very different. With the greatest respect to the Kings and Queen of these three Kingdoms that form Eskdale they are not the ones with a voting right. In terms of the vote of Awhaele it will be ultimately exercised in the Great Northern Ocean and not in the Illumic. This "Scope Protocol" may sound nice on paper but in reality its worthless. You have no military of your own, you rely on what Emperor Peter sends you should he wish to not fulfil something that we determine as a group then all he needs to do is station inadequate or inappropriate numbers or equipment on Awhaele. You are asking us to place a great deal of good faith on Emperor Peter and Achkaerin rather than on yourself and Awhaele. Welcoming the 20million people of Awhaele would have been a pleasure, however welcoming them, plus the 102 million people of Achkaerin is not as so straight forward. I'm yet to hear of any reassurance that MICA does not become influenced by a nation in the Great North Ocean or as to why 102 million people from that region deserve to be granted free trade access to my Kingdom despite supporting an organisation that I believe causes more harm to global stability than it brings reassurance. Every nation brings with it baggage into a relationship. I am confident with East Moreland that their CNN baggage is manageable, I am not too sure CSTO baggage is but I am all ears."

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2022, 07:32:09 PM »
Siora leaned over to whisper something in Vivian's ear, the First Minister nodded and excused herself for a moment, the reason was simple Siora had an idea but it needed backing.

"What I'm hearing is that you have questions and concerns around the Emperor, I trust him you don't maybe that's because I know him better than you do but it's clearly not something we can address here, you have issues about Achkaerin's relationship with the CSTO, but in my view you're confusing unilateral actions taken by one member of that alliance as being taken by the whole alliance." she took a breath "Given your worries about influence and such perhaps MICA should rework it's charter to address that issue." she put a piece of paper on the table

Quote
Any nation with access to the Mhorish or Illumic coastline may become a member of this organisation by agreeing to abide by its articles and aims. Any nations admission may be stopped should a motion to not admit be presented and supported by 75% of voting members.

"That's currently the sole provision in the MICA charter that deals with membership, no mention of native, just who has access. The principle of all nations meeting the criteria being able to join isn't bad as it avoids a two tier situation developing but it does as you allude to risk diluting the authority of the native nations to make the decisions. So if I may make a suggestion:" she put another piece of paper on the table

Quote
1. Any nation with access to the Mhorish or Illumic coastline may become a member of this organisation by agreeing to abide by its articles and aims. Any nations admission may be stopped should a motion to not admit be presented and supported by 75% of voting members.

a) Nations native to the MICA region (in terms of sovereignty) shall be referred to as Permanent Members.
b) Nations not native to the MICA region but who have the coastline access shall be referred to as Associate members
c) Both Permanent and Associate members shall be allowed membership of MICA bodies and to be present at meetings
d) Both Permanent and Associate Members may propose matters for debate and participate in debate.
e) Only Permanent Members may vote.

"I hope King David won't mind the heavy borrowing from the Illumic Council wording, but I trust you see what I'm suggesting here, restructuring the membership to keep the decision making power with the natives while allowing those that have a stake in the region but aren't native, such as Achkaerin, to be present and contribute but the votes stay in the Illumic and Mhorish. You then expressed concerns about the economic issue, that's a little more tricky but I'll take a shot at it, maybe something like this." she picked up a copy of the previously agreed amendment and quickly noted some stuff

Quote
2. All members agree to the following trade agreements.

a) All materials gathered in the MICA region (defined as geographically the Mhorish Sea and Illumic Channel) may be traded tarriff free so long as they remain unprocessed.
b) All materials gathered outside the MICA region shall be required to pay a tariff once they reach a nation that the gathering nation would normally pay tariffs in.
c) All materials that have been processed in a MICA nation (defined as a nation with 'home' territory within the MICA region or where there be no 'home territory' exclusively within sovereign territory in the MICA region) shall be traded tariff free.
d) All materials that have been processed outside a MICA nation but enter the region shall be eligible for tariffs at the first border they reach where the processing nation would normally pay tariffs.
e) All services may be traded tariff free.
f) Companies must abide by all local rules governing health and safety.
g) Companies must abide by all local laws governing prohibited materials and substances.
h) Companies must pay local taxes at the same rate as local companies

"What the suggestion in red does is make the MICA region clearly defined in geographic terms so that would to address King Rutger's economic access concern mean that minerals mined in Awhaele would be tariff free, whereas a mineral mined up north would not be. The suggestion in yellow does a similar thing for processed materials but does it in a way that doesn't impact anyone except the non natives, using the proposed permanent/associate membership to make the distinction, it builds a wall that keeps the benefits within the MICA region." she glanced over her shoulder at Vivian as if searching for confirmation and got the nod "And yes the Emperor will agree to that."

Offline Nova

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2022, 07:54:13 PM »
« To be clear, as per my clarification which was accepted regarding the use of term “MICA member”, you are now proposing to break such compromise which have been reached with our altonan counterparts for their entry, and effectively divide and split Heyra, something legally impossible and which can’t be enforced. Equally, the purpose of such organization is to work together in a spirit of friendship with nations geographically in the Illumic and Mhorish, not beyond » clarified shocked Therz at the achkaerinese proposal.
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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2022, 08:04:21 PM »
"No I'm not." Siora said "Heyra is a MICA Nation, it's home territory, unless you're about to tell us that Juhi or Elysium is your home territory, sits in the MICA region it is therefore under my proposal unaffected."

Offline Nova

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2022, 08:10:57 PM »
« Heyra is an unitary state, composed of multiples regions, spread on 3 continents, therefore Elysium is as much an heyran city as Evity or Singa » said upset at the lack of knowledge regarding heyran status, « Unlike the Holy Empire, we do not possess territories which we treat like colonies » slided in Therz. « And your proposal, effectively propose to impose tariffs inside Heyra » pointed out Therz calmly again, showing that achkaerineses wanted to divide Heyra.
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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2022, 08:35:41 PM »
"Again you're missing the point, Heyra acquired the land for Elysium in 2018 I believe, that's not home territory by my definition, Juhi voted more recently in a referendum to join Heyra so I wouldn't call that home territory by my definition either. Let me put it another way if I were to have a scientific study conducted I would likely find the earliest traces of Heyra as a sovereign state in the Mhorish and Illumic region, am I wrong? That's what I mean by home territory. I'm not interested in how you view overseas territories which you've acquired, but the facts are historically that you didn't always have them so I don't take them as home territory within the context I am describing."

Offline Nova

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2022, 08:45:18 PM »
« By your definition? And I’m missing the point? » ironised Therz, « Next time I need interpretations regarding our Constitution I shall ask you therefore » said in a sarcastic manner Therz, « We offer you the chance to exchange, discuss, be cordial, and you come and tell us how we shall do and insult us? ». « The Heyrana Respublica’s have no overseas territories, and I must say that you are insulting millions of our fellow countrymen and women. With that said, I have no further will to discuss with the representative of the Holy Empire of Achkaerin, heyran position being most clear against such, and impossible to comply with, alongside insulting, declaration from the achkaerinese representative » ended Therz, letting the space for anyone else willing.
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Offline Altona

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2022, 11:26:10 AM »
Rutger had been listening to the Awhaele and Heyran discussion.

"The MICA Charter makes it clear that access to the Mhorish or Illumic is not the only qualification needed to join this organisation. The charter clearly states that approval of those already in the organisation is needed. We don't therefore need to define anything regarding geography or control, once someone applies for membership we, the membership, determine whether they qualify. There are sat around this table several Heads of State and leading politicians that have concluded treaties and arrangements across Mundus. This does not come down to the charter, the charter could say exactly what you suggested but I would still oppose your membership. The reason is simple I do not believe that decisions about the happening in the Mhroish and Illumic should be made in the Great North Ocean. You have just stated that if we studied the earliest traces of Heyra we'd find it in the Mhorish and Illumic which is correct however if we do the same for Achkaerin it would be in the Great North Ocean, so therefore while your people are native your leaders are not. That is a decision that your people have made and now they must live with that decision. I am yet to be convinced that I should change my vote to support your admission. No nation that has territory overseas has not adversely impacted the people there. Look at your own words, you spoke of your homeland undergoing a cultural genocide. Since 1880 the Treaty after the Battle of Partisarum gave neither Achkaerin or Vaguzia a claim to sovereignty over Awhaele unless  the people choose to. That was a chance for the island to shake off the cultural genocide. We've seen East Moreland take steps to rediscover parts of its culture, under our hosts great-grandfather we saw East Moreland take a shift towards English as a main language, King David and his father sought to restore Morelandish as their native language and have succeeded hugely. There was a chance for Awhaele to be able to take control of their direction of travel and they looked North not South. If you wish to sway my vote, and I suspect several others around this table, then the image of being just a way of getting Achkaerin a say in our region needs to be addressed. The organisation doesn't need to change to accommodate you as it is already strong enough. With ourselves, Eskdale and Heimney joining we have surpassed the size of the CSU economy, we're one of the most stable regions on Mundus and have a huge record of co-operation, just look at the recent incident in Heyra and how Bakkermaya and East Moreland both stepped up to help them. This is quiet an organisation so convince us that we should overlook our concerns?"

Offline RobertAgira

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2022, 05:49:14 PM »
Grand Duke Hugo Lascelles began "As Queen Siora will likely know some time ago this organisation fashioned a system of what became known as Rapid Reaction Responsibility Areas of 3RA's. The purpose was that as a body we would be able to cover the whole of the Illumic and Mhroish, the exception being territorial waters, in case of emergencies such as piracy or the need for search and rescue. If you look at the map of them you will note that a line running more or less from the Zimalia and Argemento border across to Seaforth marks the northern limit of the Illumic. Even if being more generous the idea of a nautical channel is a waterway between two landmasses that lie close to each other, now that is pushing the definition for the Illumic, but clearly you are not of the same landmass as Alba Karinya or Aranye which sit the opposite sides of the Illumic. This would mean according to this map connecting the most northernly parts of those landmasses you could therefore argue that your nation isn't even native to the Illumic so I think it even more important to hear on why you, and not the Emperor of Achkaerin, should be involved in this organisation. If you can convince us of that then we can work out how to make it happen.

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2022, 02:18:00 AM »
Almost in unison Siora and Vivian reached for bracelets that were on their wrists, these were holy symbols to their faith akin to what a crucifix was for Christians, the pair muttered something in their native tongue, in truth this was a prayer not for themselves but for what they'd just heard, words that suggested the table was likely not entirely familiar with the post 1880 situation, and then the Grand Duke redefining long established geographic boundaries was just plain shocking.

"While it's true the 1880 treaty prevented either Vaguzia or Achkaerin from claiming sovereignty over Awhaele it did other things as well and I'll get to that in a moment." Siora said slowly "But first you need to understand where the Faejeon were in 1880, those that had fought in the war and survived returned to their villages, those that had been evacuated during the height of the conflict were in a refugee camp in Achkaerin. Cyalona a city that is to the Faejeon what the Isle of the Goddess is to the Lodjans had been sacked and largely ruined by the Vaguzian's, relics stolen, temples burned, the guild buildings destroyed, the palace itself a hollow shell of what it had been and only a single guild leader, the High Priestess, surviving." she took a breath "The treaty in 1880 didn't just end a war in put in place a system of government that I'm sure we're all familiar with - a Parliament with a first past the post constituency based vote, that system still governs the island day to day happenings today. Between 1880 and 2010 that Parliament was governed by a Vaguzian party that basically implemented and enforced a set of policies that discriminated against the Faejeon, we weren't allowed to worship openly, we couldn't conduct guild examinations, we couldn't even learn our own heritage because of the curriculum put in the schools, we were having Izra shoved down our throats, the first minister here was barred from going to university because she is a Faejeon woman. In fairness it wasn't that much better up north but that was to be expected, when in a foreign land you expect to learn their curriculum, we were however able to practice our faith albeit in what was best described as a stone hut. In 2010 the government on Awhaele shifted and things started to open up, refugees were able to return home as they perceived it to be safer, although many didn't until three years ago with my coronation, we started the long process of rebuilding and it may not finish for a while but we're on the journey, we've seen some temples restored, we've seen the Palace rebuilt, Cyalona reopened to its people but there's still a lot to do, part of the reason I came here was to get assistance in some of those efforts.

What I'm trying to explain here is a little of our more recent history, we've not had one hundred and forty two years to shake this we've had technically seven but in truth more like three. These kind of wounds take a lot of time to heal but here I am sitting at the same table as Vaguzia, the nation that greatly wronged us, and I don't believe it's the same Vaguzia. You're all understandably concerned about who makes decisions, in truth Achkaerin doesn't need the admission into MICA it has bilateral treaties with some of the MICA membership that cover pretty much everything in the charter and has a very strong track record of cooperation in this region, if it was Valtheim that wanted this I wouldn't be sat here, you'd have an Achkaerinese minister in front of you, instead I'm here with the first minister because I believe it's in the interests of my island to forge closer relations with its Illumic and Mhorish brethren this is our home region as much as it yours, the reason it's Achkaerin your having to consider for admission and not Awhaele is because when myself and King David previously met we couldn't find a way of firewalling Achkaerin out and keeping Awhaele in, the most glaring reason for that being the 3RA's, it's a defence related matter and that's the one area covered under the MICA charter that doesn't fall within the Awhaele governments powers under the devolution agreement. This has been overcome before in this region and I believe it can do so again in a way that satisfies King Rutger's concerns in that area, but for that you would need an outside agreement between MICA and Achkaerin to underpin it. We're all Mhorish or Illumic natives here, we all want the same thing, greater cooperation and a stable region to everyone's satisfaction and that's achievable, we've got some of the most experienced negotiators on Mundus here after all. Awhaele can alone satisfy over 90% of this charter all I'm asking for is the chance to make that 100%.

You don't have to admit us as full members either, you can always do something like probationary membership, test it out over time before full admission, considering that several of the concerns are to do with things that have not happened and may not happen giving us a chance to show you who we are, that we can work cooperatively together and to alleviate the concerns you have without you risking an outside influence."

OOC note: The 2015 date has been changed to 2010 to avoid issues with EM/Vaguzia relations.

Offline Nova

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2022, 09:05:36 AM »
Anginer would tap on Therz’s shoulder, as to be allowed to talk, which she’d grant him by a nod, « Just » intervened Anginer as he couldn’t understand a statement, « If you say that Valtheim have no interests in such since it already have sufficient bilateral agreements in the region, that, as you said, cover pretty much everything in the charter, then so do you, such is serving you too since your capital is now Valtheim as you are achkaerineses, is that correct? Degrees of autonomy do not mean independence, specially following your referendum’s decision, and you do benefit from whatever treaty or organization the Holy Empire is part of, including those which you claim cover pretty much everything in the charter. You speak to us as if your government didn’t rely on Achkaerin, however it clearly does, you do not control achkaerinese foreign policy, you do not control all the legislations that may be decided and applied on your land, you decide some but not all since all achkaerineses laws and treaties apply to your province; therefore you are not a nation, it is the burden of your referendum, you are an achkaerinese province, have representatives to the achkaerinese Senate and even your Majesty having a seat in the achkaerinese Noble Moot. Therefore, two matters, how does such membership serve you anything knowing that you enjoy fully of achkaerineses bilateral ties and more; and how do you propose that legally a province of the Holy Empire, who can be imposed laws and do not decide its foreign policy, be considered as a nation? » resumed in two questions Anginer.
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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2022, 10:17:45 PM »
"Governor you appear to not understand how the Achkaerinese system works." Vivian said "The Empire is made up of nine Constituent Nations, each of those nine has their own legislature, and each of those nine legislatures must ratify a law of the Senate that impacts them in order for that law to apply, legislation falls if the Constituent legislature says no. So once the Senate passes what is being called AVAL, Awhaele Votes for Awhaele Laws, that arrangement will apply to us as well. So no Valtheim cannot impose any law it chooses without the natives having a say if it impacts them and if we say no our voice is louder." she took a moment to pause "Now in terms of your questions, the first one is quite simple at the moment Awhaele benefits from ties with three nations around this table, if admitted we gain ties with the remaining six. As far as your second question I've just explained it, what you call a province we call a Constituent Nation but we can't have things imposed on us against our will, any vote in the Senate that would impact Awhaele requires a vote in our Parliament as well as in each of the other eight Constituent legislatures should it impact them and that does give us a say in policy as well, that's the position under the Achkaerinese Constitution."

Offline Nova

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2022, 11:22:40 PM »
OOC: reminder RP it time locked, so doing such post within such visions. I’ve verified with Dave.

« How convenient that such piece of legislation which no one have ever heard about nor have it ever been publicized by achkaerineses medias, just appear following my question » said in a sarcastic tone Anginer, « However even so, it is up to the Senate to grant you such power -which you do not have- knowing that we do not like to make decisions on “what if”, and remove it if it wishes since you do not have it currently. But for certain, I do not understand achkaerinese most complexe legal system your Majesty » he said keeping appearances, annoyed at such display of arrogance and clear lies. « As for the term of province, maybe your Majesty does not use such, however the achkaerinese government clearly does as per this statement from last year. ».

« As for the benefits, therefore why as per your previous statement, does the Holy Empire claims to have no need to expanding such ties, while you do? Economically your companies are more than satisfied. Geographically, thanks to technology, no one needs to look at a map to do business or exchange cultures. Diplomatically, the achkaerinese diplomatic corps is one of the finest, and even if you do get to pass your own legislation or object to some, you won’t be able to go against its agenda and whatever it may decide. If Achkaerin decides to withdraw from CSTO you have no say, you cannot make a VETO for instance. Same goes for military, if it decides to deploy an aeronaval group in the Illumic like it did with Zimalia, you may only testify it like us. Therefore what are the benefits? For you, and for us? » questioned Anginer. « If you tell me that you can do all of that, then I am to wonder: are you truly part of the Holy Empire and not an independent state? What connection is left with the central government of the Holy Empire if not for all those subjects, you’d seem to be more taking part of a confederation where people agree or not and it is quite anarchical, making overall Achkaerin a less trustworthy partner as it’d be preferable to then deal with every single one of its entities » he commented. « I hope that you understand that my questions and comments aren’t made to be offensive or display hostile. However they do certainly display my deep concerns, which I think are shared by some around this table » he’d clarify while taking a kind tone.
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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2022, 04:09:46 AM »
"Governor you're partially right but you are also partially misinformed. You've made an assumption that what a nation needs equates to what a nation wants. Does Achkaerin need membership in MICA to get the ties? If you ask around Valtheim you get the answer 'probably not' the reason is very simple the respect Achkaerin has for the policy of regional self determination championed by its two closest allies and not wanting to put either the King of East Moreland, the King of Seaforth or anyone else on a sticky wicket, however we're all unfortunately and inadvertently on that wicket because we find ourselves in an unprecedented situation, a nation home to natives governed to some degree from afar.

The Government in Valtheim unquestionably wants ties with MICA but rather than push for membership they're more inclined to pursue a straight up Achkaerin-MICA agreement because they understand the concern that we're attempting to navigate here, we came here today prepared to discuss all our options, my position as first minister and that of Her Majesty is that we want MICA membership we're here representing an island home to twenty million Illumic natives, we clearly want and need ties with our regional neighbours and if not MICA membership then we'll discuss our other options. Our benefits are spelled out in the charter - if you admit us we get access to all that, if we get a separate agreement we get whatever benefits that agreement gives us. What's your benefit? If we resolve this issue in a manner that's acceptable to everyone whether it be membership or other arrangements, you reduce any potential CSTO activity to the absolute minimum it can be in the region, you stop repeat performances of the Zimalia incident you mentioned, we tighten up on maritime criminal activity such as smuggling and most importantly we avoid creating a two tiered Illumic and we don't end up coming back and having the same conversation every time something happens."


OOC - Just so you're all aware I'm going to be on holiday between the 21st of June and 2nd of July, so don't expect much from me around then.

Offline Altona

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2022, 04:45:55 PM »
Rutger still was of the mind that Achkaerin should be kept outside the organisation but he did believe a partnership could be workable.

"What I propose is the following." Rutger began handing his tablet clockwise around the table.

Quote from: The MICA-Achkaerin Agreement

Recognising the unique position of the people of Awhaele

Desiring friendship between nations

Committed to ensuring the Illumic and Mhorish are guided by the natives of that region

The following agreement shall come into force between MICA nations and the Empire of Achkaerin.

1. There shall be a MICA liaison appointed by the monarch of Awhaele. This liaison must fit the following criteria.

a) They must have been born in Awhaele or resided there for at least five years.
b) They must not have served in the Achkaerin armed forces
c) They must not have held any political post within the Achkaerin government, the exception being that the post deals soley with Awhaele affairs.

2. The Liaison may attend MICA meetings unless at least two members oppose their attendance. While attending the Liaison may contribute to discussions. Should during talks two members request the Liaison to leave then they must do so.

3. The Liaison will be responsible for the upkeep of an up to date record of Achkaerin military forces and vessels in Awhaele.

4.  Awhaele's monarch will utilise military assets at their disposal to contribute to the 3RA system.

5. Unless specified in other treaties good and materials entering a MICA nation from Awhaele shall do so tariff free so long as they are accompanied by documentation proving that they have been extracted, grown, processed or produced within Awhaele. This shall be reciprocated by Awhaele.

6. Unless specified in other treaties good and materials entering a MICA nation from Awhaele shall do so at a reduced tariff so long as they are accompanied by documentation proving that they have been extracted, grown, processed or produced within any other part of Achkaerin. This shall be reciprocated by Achkaerin

7. Travel for MICA nation and Achkaerin passport holders may enter the other nation for 30 days without a visa so long as they do not possess a criminal record or are deemed to be a national security risk.

8. Achkaerin agree that other than on grounds of security of Awhaele they will do nothing to militarise the MICA region.

9. Achkaerin agree that there shall not be a non-native military presence permanently based in Awhaele.

10. MICA nations agree to support the security of Awhaele so long as Achkaerin are not the aggressor in a situation that has placed a threat on the island.

11. MICA nations shall offer port facilities to Achkaerin vessels providing support to MICA operations.

12. This agreement comes into force on.......insert date......

13. Should either party wish to amend this agreement it must receive the approval of the Achkaerin Monarch and all MICA members.

14. Achkaerin may withdraw at any time by giving 30 days notice from the monarch of Achkaerin.

15. MICA may withdraw at any time following a vote to that effect winning a majority of MICA members support.

Signed....

8. MICA and Achkaerin agree to share security intelligence regarding the Mhorish and Illumic regions so far as doing so does not endanger their own national security.

9.


7.

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2022, 05:15:33 PM »
« The MICA region term isn’t defined anywhere in the current charter, therefore it’d be better to change it by “Mhorish and Illumic” as you wrote later in your proposal. Article 4 grant Awhaele military authority in Achkaerin therefore to dispose of achkaerinese military assets, which is odd but if that’s how they work… We’d however be for its removal given achkaerinese abusive past in regards to military assets deployment and such may be an open argument for anything, just like article 11, heyran facilities won’t welcome any achkaerinese assets. Over article 8 I’d write minimum required military asset which would be discussed together, since on the “grounds of security”, truly anything can be justified like they did in the past by sending an entire aeronaval group. With those amendments it’d be fine for us. I however shall point that it would be better suited to speak with Emperor Peter then, or a direct diplomatic representative of the Holy Empire, since it’d engage the Empire, not just Awhaele » positioned herself Therz.
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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2022, 12:20:06 AM »
Siora and Vivian looked at the tablet, it was pretty good.

"I'm not going to comment on what the Chairwoman has said, because I believe she was querying King Rutger." Siora said "She is correct that this goes above our pay grade so to speak, I can recommend the Emperor endorse the agreement and it being reasonable I'm sure he will do so. Speaking for the two of us here I broadly speaking like it a lot but would propose making two minor changes:

Quote
Recognising the unique position of the people of Awhaele

Desiring friendship between nations

Committed to ensuring the Illumic and Mhorish are guided by the natives of that region

The following agreement shall come into force between MICA nations and the Empire of Achkaerin.

1. There shall be a MICA liaison appointed by the monarch of Awhaele. This liaison must fit the following criteria.

a) They must have been born in Awhaele or resided there for at least five years.
b) They must not have served in the Achkaerin armed forces
c) They must not have held any political post within the Achkaerin government, the exception being that the post deals soley with Awhaele affairs.

2. The Liaison may attend MICA meetings unless at least two members oppose their attendance The reason for exclusion shall be communicated to the Awhaele monarch at least 24 hours in advance of the meeting.. While attending the Liaison may contribute to discussions. Should during talks two members request the Liaison to leave then they must do so. No such exclusion may be enacted if a situation involving Awhaele is or is to be the subject of the discussion. An exclusion may be overriden by a majority vote of MICA members.

3. MICA shall communicate all decisions made in the absence of the liaison, in circumstances as detailed in article 2, to the Awhaele Monarch upon the talks conclusion.

4. The Liaison will be responsible for the upkeep of an up to date record of Achkaerin military forces and vessels in Awhaele.

5. Awhaele's monarch will utilise military assets at their disposal to contribute to the 3RA system.

6. Unless specified in other treaties good and materials entering a MICA nation from Awhaele shall do so tariff free so long as they are accompanied by documentation proving that they have been extracted, grown, processed or produced within Awhaele. This shall be reciprocated by Awhaele.

7. Unless specified in other treaties good and materials entering a MICA nation from Awhaele shall do so at a reduced tariff so long as they are accompanied by documentation proving that they have been extracted, grown, processed or produced within any other part of Achkaerin. This shall be reciprocated by Achkaerin


8. Travel for MICA nation and Achkaerin passport holders may enter the other nation for 30 days without a visa so long as they do not possess a criminal record or are deemed to be a national security risk.

9. Achkaerin agree that other than on grounds of security of Awhaele they will do nothing to militarise the MICA region.

10. Achkaerin agree that there shall not be a non-native military presence permanently based in Awhaele.

11. MICA nations agree to support the security of Awhaele so long as Achkaerin are not the aggressor in a situation that has placed a threat on the island.

12. MICA and Achkaerin agree to share security intelligence regarding the Mhorish and Illumic regions so far as doing so does not endanger their own national security.

13. MICA nations shall offer port facilities to Achkaerin vessels providing support to MICA operations.

14. This agreement comes into force on.......insert date......

15. Should either party wish to amend this agreement it must receive the approval of the Achkaerin Monarch and all MICA members.

16. Achkaerin may withdraw at any time by giving 30 days notice from the monarch of Achkaerin.

17. MICA may withdraw at any time,by giving 30 days notice, following a vote to that effect winning a majority of MICA members support.

18. Achkaerin and MICA may at any point within the notice period rescind the withdrawal by the same indicated method.

Signed....

"The amendments proposed to article two are intended to guarantee a level of fairness so for example if MICA were meeting to discuss something such a response to an attack on Awhaele that the liaison could not be excluded from that sort of thing, I understand the exclusion mechanism but I think it reasonable that if done in advance of the meeting that we are given both adequate notice of and the reason for the exclusion, the membership having the ability to override an exclusion gives our end of it reassurance that an exclusion is reasoned. My proposed article three ensures that in the event of the exclusion, decisions made by MICA are communicated in a timely manner. My last two amendment proposals make clear that MICA must also serve thirty days notice if it chooses to withdraw and that either party during that notice period can cancel the withdrawal. I believe these are fair amendments that provide the reassurances that would get it through the due process in the Senate."


OOC - section highlighted in yellow is because it appears to be duplication I would presume that one article is intended to govern goods travelling from Awhaele into MICA and the other is intended to govern the reverse, but I'm not entirely sure if that's correct.

Offline Altona

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2022, 08:51:50 PM »
OOC- The bits in yellow should replace in Article 7 the word Awahele for Achkaerin. Sorry



"While I would normally agree that issues such as notice or a vote would be fair I do not think it appropriate." Rutger began to explain. "For example if we where discussing the recent coup attempt in Heyra, a situation where time is critical the idea of having 24 hours notice that a meeting would even take place wouldn't exist. Furthermore if once notice is given we have 24 hours to wait before continuing then it can be too slow. The nature of global geo-politics means that sometimes speed for discussions is needed. Furthermore the time to then establish a vote is further complicating matters. I have no issue with Article 3 though. As for the change in Article 17 I can agree to that. "

Rutger turned to the Heyran delegation. "It would be unfair to say that no Achakerin military assets could go to Awhaele and that they need to be out of the MICA region. As a result maintaining an active and up to date record is a fair compromise. If the assets are known then we in the organisation can take action if we feel there were too many being sent. As for defining the area I think we are all clear as to where we are discussing so I am not sure what you mean by having to define an area. "
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 10:03:23 PM by Altona »

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2022, 01:15:11 AM »
"We don't mind it being less than twenty four hours and I agree with you, we'd just like to know, ideally, before we put the liaison on a plane whether they're going to a meeting or not." Siora said "I think we should also be clear that any vote to override would have to be in a meeting where an exclusion was sought, ultimately we're just trying to communicate what we see as a way of you being able to enact an exclusion in a manner where we know it's not going to be abused. Article two is worded in a way that has two ways of an exclusion occurring one before a meeting and one during a meeting, in the case of before a meeting we're simply asking MICA to notify us of the exclusion and the reason for the exclusion, if it happens during a meeting then I don't see a problem with the members present in that meeting being able to override that, which in turn provides us with an assurance that the exclusion isn't being abused. Finally given your point on time, this is why I suggested preventing an exclusion where for example the meeting was to discuss for example a response to an attack on Awhaele simply because no one wants to have that conversation of that sort twice. I believe a more clear version of the article would be this"

Quote
2. The Liaison may attend MICA meetings unless at least two members oppose their attendance, the reason for exclusion shall be communicated to the Awhaele monarch as soon as possible,. While attending the Liaison may contribute to discussions. Should during talks two members request the Liaison to leave then they must do so, unless a majority of MICA members in the meeting vote to override. No such exclusion may be enacted if a situation involving Awhaele is or is to be the subject of the discussion.

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2022, 09:44:50 PM »
Rutger was unsure exactly how Achkaerin intended to do things but the comments from Siora didn't exactly fill him with confidence. "If you're going to be involved with an organisation such as this I would expect you to be able to get someone into a meeting within a couple of hours. We live in a time where if desperation called for we have secure video conferencing. Altona would utilise our ambassador in whatever nation the talks were happening if need be. We can't and must not permit a relationship with Awhaele to slow down the processes of MICA." Rutger addressed the others in the final point. "I believe the proposed Article 2 could be workable."

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Re: The Great MICA Sort Out
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2022, 04:31:37 PM »
OOC - For reference I believe this is what we currently have am I correct?

Quote
Recognising the unique position of the people of Awhaele

Desiring friendship between nations

Committed to ensuring the Illumic and Mhorish are guided by the natives of that region

The following agreement shall come into force between MICA nations and the Empire of Achkaerin.

1. There shall be a MICA liaison appointed by the monarch of Awhaele. This liaison must fit the following criteria.

a) They must have been born in Awhaele or resided there for at least five years.
b) They must not have served in the Achkaerin armed forces
c) They must not have held any political post within the Achkaerin government, the exception being that the post deals soley with Awhaele affairs.

2. The Liaison may attend MICA meetings unless at least two members oppose their attendance, the reason for exclusion shall be communicated to the Awhaele monarch as soon as possible,. While attending the Liaison may contribute to discussions. Should during talks two members request the Liaison to leave then they must do so, unless a majority of MICA members in the meeting vote to override. No such exclusion may be enacted if a situation involving Awhaele is or is to be the subject of the discussion.

3. MICA shall communicate all decisions made in the absence of the liaison, in circumstances as detailed in article 2, to the Awhaele Monarch upon the talks conclusion.

4. The Liaison will be responsible for the upkeep of an up to date record of Achkaerin military forces and vessels in Awhaele.

5. Awhaele's monarch will utilise military assets at their disposal to contribute to the 3RA system.

6. Unless specified in other treaties good and materials entering a MICA nation from Awhaele shall do so tariff free so long as they are accompanied by documentation proving that they have been extracted, grown, processed or produced within Awhaele. This shall be reciprocated by Awhaele.

7. Unless specified in other treaties good and materials entering a MICA nation from Achkaerin shall do so at a reduced tariff so long as they are accompanied by documentation proving that they have been extracted, grown, processed or produced within any other part of Achkaerin. This shall be reciprocated by Achkaerin

8. Travel for MICA nation and Achkaerin passport holders may enter the other nation for 30 days without a visa so long as they do not possess a criminal record or are deemed to be a national security risk.

9. Achkaerin agree that other than on grounds of security of Awhaele they will do nothing to militarise the MICA region.

10. Achkaerin agree that there shall not be a non-native military presence permanently based in Awhaele.

11. MICA nations agree to support the security of Awhaele so long as Achkaerin are not the aggressor in a situation that has placed a threat on the island.

12. MICA and Achkaerin agree to share security intelligence regarding the Mhorish and Illumic regions so far as doing so does not endanger their own national security.

13. MICA nations shall offer port facilities to Achkaerin vessels providing support to MICA operations.

14. This agreement comes into force on.......insert date......

15. Should either party wish to amend this agreement it must receive the approval of the Achkaerin Monarch and all MICA members.

16. Achkaerin may withdraw at any time by giving 30 days notice from the monarch of Achkaerin.

17. MICA may withdraw at any time,by giving 30 days notice, following a vote to that effect winning a majority of MICA members support.

18. Achkaerin and MICA may at any point within the notice period rescind the withdrawal by the same indicated method.