Author Topic: The Order of the Pen  (Read 1278 times)

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Offline Beatrice

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The Order of the Pen
« on: April 26, 2022, 09:22:03 AM »

THE ORDER OF THE PEN
OF THE INDEPENDENT ORDER

The Grand Chancellor formally establishes the Order of the Pen as an Order of Chivalry, this shall be awarded for members Roleplay quality and Roleplay Contribution, All individuals who hold titles of nobility, that were awarded for Roleplay Contribution, shall be inducted automatically into the Order of the Pen. The following Independent Nations are hereby recognized for the continued quality of their RP, and are thus inducted as Members of the Order of the Pen:

Altona
Cass
Markus
Daito
Heimney
RobertAgria
Paracambi
Kermah
Rayyu
Paralipomena
Lijiang

We all look forward to reading and engaging with excellent RP, and I to recognizing yet more people as time goes by. Thank you all for your contributions to our region, to sharing your stories with us, and may we all continue to build together. :)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2022, 06:20:48 PM by Beatrice »

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Offline Nova

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2022, 09:28:59 AM »
32 minutes. That's the number of minutes you'd have needed to violate the new constitution...
Duty (i) of the Chancellery “i) Inducting (and removing when inactive) members of the Order of the Pen upon instruction of the Order”. While I welcome those and think they make sense for the great written works, it's not you as Chancellor who decide as defined by our new constitution, but only doing the symbolic appointment.
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Online Achkaerin

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2022, 09:05:35 PM »
In my view no violation of the Constitution has occurred. Over the last two months many people have commented saying "this person should be a noble" the people making such comments included at least one member of the former Regional Nobility (now order of the Pen) so I can see how Beatrice may interpret this as an instruction to induct.

I will say with hindsight it would have been preferable for Beatrice to induct the new members as Baron/Baronet before enacting the new Constitution, but given what I've read and what I understand from Beatrice I don't believe this amounts to a violation of the Constitution.

Offline Nova

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2022, 09:18:14 PM »
I'm curious as to know what do you fail to understand about “upon instruction of the Order”?
It's not because the result of the action in itself is right, that the action in itself is. Such blindness shouldn't be tolerated. Therefore, I ask you a vote of confidence following a rule violation from the Chancellor.
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Online Achkaerin

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2022, 09:33:25 PM »
I'm curious as to know what do you fail to understand about “upon instruction of the Order”?
It's not because the result of the action in itself is right, that the action in itself is. Such blindness shouldn't be tolerated. Therefore, I ask you a vote of confidence following a rule violation from the Chancellor.

I have just explained that in my opinion the Grand Chancellor was instructed, therefore in my view no Constitutional breach or rule violation has occurred.

Offline Nova

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2022, 09:54:36 PM »
Precisely, therefore please precise. As I've asked.
Since de-facto it is Beatrice who alone decided of the list as Chancellor, and not per the Order's instructions as defined in the constitution. Your first message wasn't an explanation, was just you saying that the outcome is the same (which it may well not be, can't know since the discussion never took place within the Order). As I've stated, “It's not because the result of the action in itself is right, that the action in itself is”.

Equally, unrelated, violating the Constitution 32 minutes after it have been adopted by one who violated texts prior and a reform which shows hope to everybody for a healthier context, and the Lord Chief Justice refusing to fix the issue even after a member had called him, sends a pretty bad message IMO. Like, what have changed from before then, if Beatrice can keep violating the law and the Lord Chief Justice like the last incident regarding a “gaming law” won't intervene.
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Online Achkaerin

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2022, 10:06:04 PM »
You've misread and/or misunderstood what I've said. Nowhere in Constitution is the method of instruction for the Order of the Pen defined as such it is reasonable for Beatrice to interpret comments made by members of the Order as an instruction (therefore no rule violation or Constitutional violation has occurred)

The fix is quite simple, define the method of instruction to be a vote in the Order of the Pen Forum and include it in the Constitution.

Offline Nova

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2022, 10:15:44 PM »
Of the Order means it as an entity. Therefore, an entity isn't represented by one or two single individuals. Thanks. If you fail to understand such basic we may have an issue. E.g. the discussion going on right now on the Order's forum about new potential members.
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Offline Cool101jr

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2022, 11:13:26 PM »
Given I've mentioned the multiple times that many of the names on the list should've been added to the order for awhile now, and I've seen the same from other members of the order before the change, it should be seen as obvious that the Chancellor was acting on the instructions of said members and granting membership to the people we had been suggesting for many months now. Therefore she acted perfectly with her duties.
Furthermore, I'd request that you, Nova, stop trying to find petty excuses to cause further trouble for the Chancellor after she has spent so much time stressing to fix things and bring about the changes everyone was asking for.

Offline Beatrice

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2022, 11:22:29 PM »
Of the Order means it as an entity. Therefore, an entity isn't represented by one or two single individuals. Thanks. If you fail to understand such basic we may have an issue. E.g. the discussion going on right now on the Order's forum about new potential members.

I have proposed names that many, many, many many Orderians have recognized as putting forward quality RP, time, after time, after time, after time, even when they felt that things were against them. If the constant praises and calls for recognition from the community are not a mark of instruction from the Order then what is? Absent a process prescribed by law and procedure, what other metric do I have to appoint people to the Order of the Pen? I have violated neither the spirit nor the letter of the Constitution and while I have remained silent before, I shall remain silent no longer.

You're a respected member of the Order, you're someone many of us consider to be a friend, and it pains me that instead of joining us in this process of healing you're going off on tangents that don't serve any of us or the Order. I named the people I named because of the feedback seen across the Order, and absent any mechanism prescribed by law or the Constitution, what defines "instruction" beyond that?

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Online Achkaerin

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2022, 01:04:11 AM »
As we're clearly debating interpretation brought about by lack of procedure being established my recommendation is that the Grand Chancellor agree to the following as the procedure for this moving forwards:

1) a Member of the Order of the Pen makes a nomination in the Order of the Pen Forum
2) The Membership of the Order of the Pen say yes/no.
3) If Yes, the name of the new member be posted in the Conference Hall where it is signed by the GC

Offline Nova

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2022, 06:46:27 AM »
@Cool: no such list was clear nor defined as such, equally there was a special dedicated channel on Discord about that which did not hold the content you said. I'm not finding pitiful excuses, you are by trying to cover Beatrice's mess up with Achkaerin. This reform is a joke quite honestly, since just 32 minutes, we got Beatrice violating it and you two coming to her rescue, like good old times.

@Beatrice: hear me out, you got to, and I know it's a hard concept for you, but you got to “discuss”. Like we are doing in that other thread.

@Achkaerin: no need, such is pretty clear and common sense as proven in the thread. But right, I see your interpretation as LCJ, any can therefore order such.

What I really hate is that I'm doing your job Achkaerin. Someone is supposed to be a pain about following the Constitution, and that's the Lord Chief Justice, not mine, but I got to do that, otherwise we'll end up like we were a month ago. If such simple violations can occur, then we already see a trend and application of the “broken window theory”. Real reform don't pass through thanksful nice new texts and fancy roles, but also applying those and being clear that those are the rules, and that they're enforced. No exceptions.

Alright no common sense. Therefore as a member of that Order based on LCJ's interpretation of the constitution which makes law, please Beatrice appoint equally Paralipomena and Izhitsa in the Order of the Pen. Thanks.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 07:04:16 AM by Nova »
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Offline Beatrice

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2022, 01:23:41 PM »
No one is “covering” for me, and may we please cease with the condescending approach?

I’ll work with people to come up with a codified process, one potential option having already been put forward, however, the lack of such a process at present does not equal a violation of the Constitution.

May we now move forward?

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Offline Nova

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2022, 01:57:45 PM »
Where is there condescendence? So far only saw it from your part to your willingness to ignore the new Constitution.

however, the lack of such a process at present does not equal a violation of the Constitution” it's not a lack of process that is a violation of the constitution (or that would mean that the constitution violate itself which is a nonsense). It's you, deciding alone without discussion with members of the Order of the Pen, of who enters. That, is a violation. We're not longer in a “fait du prince” aka absolutism.

Now if you wish to move forward, acknowledge such mistake, retract, and proceed logically. Is it too much to ask for people to respect the Constitution? And if they violate it, not make a fuss, but instead just admit the mistake and repair such? We're at 13 posts for something that was easy to solve.
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Offline Markus

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2022, 05:56:48 PM »
Here are my thoughts on this:

1.   I am fine with adding Paralipomena to the list above without further discussion. He should have been part of the first batch above. Izhitsa is not active on the forum currently so I would suggest that we go through the Order of the Pen process where I will vote in favor. Please don’t get me wrong, he is very talented. My point is that since he is not very active now we can wait a few days or a week until we go through the whole process of the Order of the Pen. I am in no way opposing his nomination.

2.   The nominations presented in the first post by Beatrice could have been handled better and by that I mean leaving the Order of the Pen to make the nominations. However, if that would have been the case then complaints might have been raised that the leadership is not moving fast enough, that nothing has changed. So I think we should also consider there was an expectation that decisions had to be made fast since not much had been done for years in this department.

3.   It think the rules we have in place aka what is described as the constitution are to make sure that players are not unfairly treated and that they can RP in peace. What Beatrice has done here was to reward some players which everyone agreed they should have been rewarded. It’s hardly a major issue so I would hope we all see that when discussing what procedure should have been followed. I think asking for a vote of confidence is too much and is not in anyone’s interest. 

4.   As we get accustomed to the new rules we will have movements where we will find that things are subject to interpretation, which could have been worded better, that we lack precedents etc. I would urge people to have some patience with this process.

5.   Regarding Ach's proposal that says:

Quote
1)   a Member of the Order of the Pen makes a nomination in the Order of the Pen Forum
2) The Membership of the Order of the Pen say yes/no.
3) If Yes, the name of the new member be posted in the Conference Hall where it is signed by the GC

I would add a time limit like say 5 or 7 days for people to vote. I expect not many will vote and there is not point to wait for weeks with the hope more members will vote.
I also would better define what “If yes “ means. Maybe “if there are more yays than nays” or if “no more than 3 members oppose it” etc. Again, I expect people to not vote much (kind of like CETO membership) so I would like it to be better defined so it’s clear that even in cases where we might only get 2 votes in a week, the new member is added to the group.     

Offline Nova

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2022, 06:45:19 PM »
Alright, going to put my feet into the plate as we say in french (therefore please do not take this personally or rudely, even if I can't prevent you from such of course):

What Beatrice did messed up the way we would supposedly have done it: through discussion, and coming more or less to an agreement organically. Now, because clearly the Chancellor and LCJ won't accept the fact that the constitution have been violated, and most people want a compromise because they don't want more drama, someone got to stick to the constitution and be that pain in the *ss. Beware ladies and gentlemen, I am willingly sacrifice myself to be such pain (that surely deserves a fancy title). :)

So, list:
Altona => for the tremendous work and being a pain in the *ss, for sure! Yes
Cass => bit inactive in my opinion, but that's up to debate
Markus => at last! Yes
Daito => at last! Yes
Heimney => Yes
RobertAgria => at last! Yes
Paracambi => at last! Yes
Kermah => just makes 4 months that he's into the region, a bit young IMO even if good RP
Rayyu => same as above, even if it makes 7 months I think now?
=> Why Paralipomena haven't been included?
If Rayyu and Kermah are in, and Cass, why not Geo? Why not Izhitsa? Why not Parabhani? And Kodima for sure. And damn! If one deserves it too, it's Lijiang with his amazing RPs!

So... See? That messes it all up. That's why it's the Order who should have this discussion, and not Beatrice who supposedly had a list that I personally never saw. Only times during the nobility times we talked about such, was for Daito and Markus, I'm not aware of any other discussions, so cool if Ach-B-Cool you had talks, because I never had those, nor was ever given the possibility to express or object on the matter even during nobility. I'm not going to speak for those who are excluded from that list, but like, damn, must feel bad, a newcomer of 4 months (who does excellent RP but still, he's new, we don't know if he's going to stay around) is appointed, by order of Beatrice's will, but not Paralipomena or Lijiang?

No. Such may be perceived as minimal, but I don't see it as such, since I see it as insulting for others, and it's just being done in a rushy manner.
In the end, who creates more drama in the region? The one who points the mistake, or the ones who refuse to correct it?
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Offline Rayyu

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2022, 08:42:41 PM »
I'd like to say thank you for the nomination. I however kind of agree with some of what Nova says. I think if we're getting awards and ranks etc based on writing it should be for contributions over a long period of time. Myself I'd be tempted to say you need to hit 100 posts perhaps before your eligible.

Offline Markus

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2022, 12:14:47 PM »
It is my hope that as things calm down and the most urgent priorities are handled, that the Order of the Pen finds the time and interest to regulate itself. By that I mean to establish some minimal rules for one to be accepted as member( maybe a minimum number of posts and time since joining) aside from the quality of the posts, some automatic extra titles ( purely cosmetic with no implications for forum, Discord or anything else) for players that reach certain thresholds like say 1000 posts or some fun ways to celebrate such events.

As for the initial list posted by Beatrice, it could have been better thought out but what's done is done. I think Beatrice understand this. In the end it's not such a big deal in my opinion that we cannot work it out or move on.

Offline Nova

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2022, 07:40:06 AM »
but what's done is done“ it effectively isn't done, since violated the constitution, and is de-facto not done, and cannot be done. Such mindset also establish that in the future any constitutional violation (that Beatrice is effectively a pro at) would just happen and we shouldn't rectify them, effectively showing how much of a joke all that reform thing is. So no.

So, Beatrice? Achkaerin? Can we advance and you react to my previous message.
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Offline Altona

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2022, 08:08:56 AM »
One of the big issues that was flagged up at the very start of this whole issue was the whole knee jerk reaction thing. We've still got it over this issue. What we have though as a problem is that the Constitution says the Chancellor has the job of “i) Inducting (and removing when inactive) members of the Order of the Pen upon instruction of the Order”. The problem is though one we didn't see coming in our discussions. At present the Order doesn't exist. So as a result the Chancellor can't follow the instruction of the Order for the initial intake as the Order doesn't exist.

I think before the first round of appointments there should be a discussion on on what basis we want people in the order. For example I agree with Rayyu that some of us on the list are relatively new and if the Order is to reflect "continued" quality RP then there perhaps needs to be a time or post limit attached.

In my view Beatrice was very quick to act on this and in one way has broken the constitution as she didn't act upon the "instruction" of the Order. However in this case she kind of had to as without breaking the constitution we couldn't ever create an Order. She could though have acted within the spirit and consulted the members of the region first. I think a desire for moving the whole recent issues to the past is wanted by everyone and in this case a quick appointment would have been perhaps one way so I'm not entirely condemning it.

Offline Nova

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2022, 08:24:24 AM »
Clarification: given that the Order of the Pen is the evolution of the Nobility, it is my understanding from Achkaerin, that any previous “Noble” was de-facto in the Order of the Pen. Therefore, there was already an Order of the Pen.
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Offline Altona

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2022, 09:35:43 AM »
My understanding is there would still be nobility but that this would be in addition to it. It does however seem by masking that this is not the case. In that sense then yes there should have been some form of consultation.

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2022, 01:09:30 PM »
The issue is that the Constitution does not define a process when it comes to this point, it does not define how the Order of the Pen instructs the Grand Chancellor, nor does it include a process as to what must happen. What I'm reading here boils down to people saying "Beatrice should have posted a topic on the forum and let the Order vote" however that is not what the Constitution says must happen, the fact it doesn't say that is something that was missed and what needs fixing here.

Now as to the consultation stuff, because of the issue created by there not being a stated process, we end up with a situation where what amounts to "instruction" is open to interpretation, the Order of the Pen prior to these inductions had 6-7 active members (based of the last writ of the Nobility) of which four have, based on this thread, been involved in discussions about some if not all of these names at some point, and based on Discord conversations there's clearly a desire for these members to be inducted. Without an established process that says specifically what the GC must do (posting of topic in a forum, waiting x amount of hours, etc), I'm prepared to accept Discord comments by people as amounting to "instruction" in this instance.

There's a difference between what the Constitution says and what Common Sense suggests. What we're differing on here is how we interpret the "on the instruction of existing members of this order." without a process for reference it's quite clear we're going to differ. Could/should she have she have done things differently? Probably yes. However her actions in my view fall within the scope of the Constitution.

There is no violation of the Constitution, because you simply cannot violate a process that doesn't exist, the criteria of good RP on the part of those inducted is met, the criteria of instruction by existing members is met. Sort the defining of a process out and we correct the issue.

Offline Nova

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2022, 01:49:07 PM »
You are fully passing aside from the point.

The issue isn't that there isn't a clear process of how the Order of the Pen decides. The issue is that Beatrice, as Chancellor, decided alone to appoint new people to the Order of the Pen. That's the sole issue. Refer to my previous messages if you don't understand. That is a constitutional violation.

What I'm reading here boils down to people saying "Beatrice should have posted a topic on the forum and let the Order vote"” no. If for instance there were talks with all the members on Discord then would have been fine. There's no limits to how it is done, since the constitution don't constrain this. So please, just, stop, bringing that the issue is the process, because it's not, and since the very start it's not my point. Thanks.

been involved in discussions about some if not all of these names at some point” that's pure speculation. And do you really want to enter into such pitiful list to write who was consulted on what? Equally that still means people who aren't part weren't able to object or discuss the matter. Therefore not applicable and futile “argument”.

However her actions in my view fall within the scope of the Constitution.” no. And issue is that you don't reply to any of the points that I've brought in my 3 previous messages.

So I'm just getting bored since nor you nor Beatrice reply to my messages, so let me repost them:

Quote
Alright, going to put my feet into the plate as we say in french (therefore please do not take this personally or rudely, even if I can't prevent you from such of course):

What Beatrice did messed up the way we would supposedly have done it: through discussion, and coming more or less to an agreement organically. Now, because clearly the Chancellor and LCJ won't accept the fact that the constitution have been violated, and most people want a compromise because they don't want more drama, someone got to stick to the constitution and be that pain in the *ss. Beware ladies and gentlemen, I am willingly sacrifice myself to be such pain (that surely deserves a fancy title). :)

So, list:
Altona => for the tremendous work and being a pain in the *ss, for sure! Yes
Cass => bit inactive in my opinion, but that's up to debate
Markus => at last! Yes
Daito => at last! Yes
Heimney => Yes
RobertAgria => at last! Yes
Paracambi => at last! Yes
Kermah => just makes 4 months that he's into the region, a bit young IMO even if good RP
Rayyu => same as above, even if it makes 7 months I think now?
=> Why Paralipomena haven't been included?
If Rayyu and Kermah are in, and Cass, why not Geo? Why not Izhitsa? Why not Parabhani? And Kodima for sure. And damn! If one deserves it too, it's Lijiang with his amazing RPs!

So... See? That messes it all up. That's why it's the Order who should have this discussion, and not Beatrice who supposedly had a list that I personally never saw. Only times during the nobility times we talked about such, was for Daito and Markus, I'm not aware of any other discussions, so cool if Ach-B-Cool you had talks, because I never had those, nor was ever given the possibility to express or object on the matter even during nobility. I'm not going to speak for those who are excluded from that list, but like, damn, must feel bad, a newcomer of 4 months (who does excellent RP but still, he's new, we don't know if he's going to stay around) is appointed, by order of Beatrice's will, but not Paralipomena or Lijiang?

No. Such may be perceived as minimal, but I don't see it as such, since I see it as insulting for others, and it's just being done in a rushy manner.
In the end, who creates more drama in the region? The one who points the mistake, or the ones who refuse to correct it?

Quote
Where is there condescendence? So far only saw it from your part to your willingness to ignore the new Constitution.

“however, the lack of such a process at present does not equal a violation of the Constitution” it's not a lack of process that is a violation of the constitution (or that would mean that the constitution violate itself which is a nonsense). It's you, deciding alone without discussion with members of the Order of the Pen, of who enters. That, is a violation. We're not longer in a “fait du prince” aka absolutism.

Now if you wish to move forward, acknowledge such mistake, retract, and proceed logically. Is it too much to ask for people to respect the Constitution? And if they violate it, not make a fuss, but instead just admit the mistake and repair such? We're at 13 posts for something that was easy to solve.

Quote
“but what's done is done“ it effectively isn't done, since violated the constitution, and is de-facto not done, and cannot be done. Such mindset also establish that in the future any constitutional violation (that Beatrice is effectively a pro at) would just happen and we shouldn't rectify them, effectively showing how much of a joke all that reform thing is. So no.

So, Beatrice? Achkaerin? Can we advance and you react to my previous message.
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Online Achkaerin

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2022, 02:50:28 PM »
You are fully passing aside from the point.

The issue isn't that there isn't a clear process of how the Order of the Pen decides. The issue is that Beatrice, as Chancellor, decided alone to appoint new people to the Order of the Pen. That's the sole issue. Refer to my previous messages if you don't understand. That is a constitutional violation.

What I'm reading here boils down to people saying "Beatrice should have posted a topic on the forum and let the Order vote"” no. If for instance there were talks with all the members on Discord then would have been fine. There's no limits to how it is done, since the constitution don't constrain this. So please, just, stop, bringing that the issue is the process, because it's not, and since the very start it's not my point. Thanks.

been involved in discussions about some if not all of these names at some point” that's pure speculation. And do you really want to enter into such pitiful list to write who was consulted on what? Equally that still means people who aren't part weren't able to object or discuss the matter. Therefore not applicable and futile “argument”.

However her actions in my view fall within the scope of the Constitution.” no. And issue is that you don't reply to any of the points that I've brought in my 3 previous messages.

So I'm just getting bored since nor you nor Beatrice reply to my messages, so let me repost them:

"The issue is that Beatrice, as Chancellor, decided alone to appoint new people to the Order of the Pen. That's the sole issue. Refer to my previous messages if you don't understand. That is a constitutional violation." - Would be if it was true but as this is a falsehood it isn't. Cool is a member of the Order of the Pen he's mentioned the names multiple times, I'm a member of the Order of the Pen I gave her names, you yourself Nova have mentioned that you discussed Daito and Markus with her. This looks very much like a decision taken by multiple people rather than one person.

"If for instance there were talks with all the members on Discord then would have been fine."  - this is you inferring the process by which Beatrice is instructed, if all members are to be consulted then that has to be stated somewhere, it isn't as a result Beatrice is free to interpret the method of instruction to be for example a majority of affirmative agreements.

"However her actions in my view fall within the scope of the Constitution.” no. And issue is that you don't reply to any of the points that I've brought in my 3 previous messages." - You're entitled to a different opinion but as LCJ my view is that she hasn't. As far as your previous messages go, they're addressed here. 

Offline Nova

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2022, 03:02:04 PM »
1- No, as I've proven in this post that you haven't even addressed (so don't say that you addressed all my points that is BS).

2- No, Beatrice isn't even listed as a noble previously nor is on the Order of the Pen (IMO she should be), therefore de-facto she can't allow herself to decide such, including interpretations, since she wasn't given by the Order such “order”. And as I said earlier, stop with your process, that's absolutely not the point and it's just a distraction because you don't know how to defend her gesture otherwise.

3- I asked you previously to argument that view, which you have failed to do, and doing it with a consistant logic, not putting distracting informations as you've done so far.

I'd love if we had serious people respecting texts at one point. A new constitution is nice, but people ignoring the mistakes and keep digging themselves a hole is making it all futile.
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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2022, 03:26:22 PM »
1- No, as I've proven in this post that you haven't even addressed (so don't say that you addressed all my points that is BS).

2- No, Beatrice isn't even listed as a noble previously nor is on the Order of the Pen (IMO she should be), therefore de-facto she can't allow herself to decide such, including interpretations, since she wasn't given by the Order such “order”. And as I said earlier, stop with your process, that's absolutely not the point and it's just a distraction because you don't know how to defend her gesture otherwise.

3- I asked you previously to argument that view, which you have failed to do, and doing it with a consistant logic, not putting distracting informations as you've done so far.

I'd love if we had serious people respecting texts at one point. A new constitution is nice, but people ignoring the mistakes and keep digging themselves a hole is making it all futile.

1) Your linked post was addressed, your point is and I quote "The issue is that Beatrice, as Chancellor, decided alone to appoint new people to the Order of the Pen. That's the sole issue." that has been addressed, your linked post only highlights people that have not been included in the first batch, that's not an issue as the Order can simply induct at a later date.

2) As this post shows Beatrice is a noble and therefore a member of the Order of the Pen. And she was so instructed in my view, you can disagree but my opinion is that she was.

Offline Nova

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2022, 03:38:17 PM »
As always so picky Achkaerin. Just taking a chunk of the message that you can respond to but not the rest.

1- It have not be addressed, since she effectively decided alone. And it is an issue, since it's a constitutional violation. And in addition to being a violation, as I've explained in my previous posts, it is a morale damage for concerned individuals on such membership or not included in said membership, and of members of the Order.

2- Oh good, didn't knew. So there was a mistake in there showing the “seriousness” of Beatrice, thank you. She wasn't instructed, or if so please show me the explicit and transparent message instructing such, as it is the definition of such word, don't use it lightly.

Reminder: “i) Inducting (and removing when inactive) members of the Order of the Pen upon instruction of the Order.”.
“Upon instruction” is most clear, “upon: more formal term for on, especially in abstract senses.”; “instruction: instructions [plural] detailed information on how to do or use something”. Thanks the Oxford dictionary for such. Therefore, as I've repeatedly asked, prove me wrong in my statements, and define strict arguments which would prove your point right. Knowing there that we aren't talking about the internal decision-marking process of the Order of the Pen, but well about the Order of the Pen instruction to the Chancellor. If you tell me since Beatrice is a member of the Order of the Pen and that is the sole reason, then: why having refused to grant membership of the Order of the Pen to Para and Izhitsa as I've required in this same thread? Meaning there would be double standards and clearly lack of cohesion, showing favoritisms and the inability of Beatrice to fulfill her duty according to the Constitution. Equally, in the Constitution it is defined “it is formally awarded by the Grand Chancellor on the instruction of existing members of this order.” which is most explicit.

Waiting for a serious response, please go further than “it's my opinion and you can have yours” or “it's a question of the Order of the Pen internal process”, since as specified: that's not the matter.
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Offline Beatrice

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2022, 03:43:27 PM »
We, as a region, are working to move forward. If I had done nothing Nova would be crucifying me for not acting quickly and seriously enough to move things forward and place this set of circumstances behind us. I am getting to the point where the petty bickering and back and forth over a technicality driven campaign against me is seriously limiting my desire to even log in here anymore.

Ach has proposed a codified solution for a process in the future, the matter should thus be settled, instead of us going on, and on, and on......

Just, ugh. Stop it.


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Offline Nova

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Re: The Order of the Pen
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2022, 04:14:16 PM »
You can't pretend to move forward if the same behaviour which caused the crisis (aka not respecting the constitution or people) is repeating itself and no one objects to it. So yes, it's painful and annoying, someone got to do it, so I'm doing it.

If things weren't moving rapidly enough on that issue (which by the way, wasn't at the core of the reform so like there was no need, while for the constitutional reform we were waiting it for 50 days), I'd be crucifying the members of the Order of the Pen. So don't take it personally.

Achkaerin's proposition is nice, but that's not the issue which I raised. As I've stated a few times now in different ways, “In the end, who creates more drama in the region? The one who points the mistake, or the ones who refuse to correct it?”.
So, as I've already proposed, “Now if you wish to move forward, acknowledge such mistake, retract, and proceed logically. Is it too much to ask for people to respect the Constitution? And if they violate it, not make a fuss, but instead just admit the mistake and repair such? We're at 13 posts for something that was easy to solve.”.
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