Print Page - Invitation to adjust the MCUR

Roleplay => Convention Centre => Topic started by: Libby on February 22, 2018, 05:48:37 PM

Title: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on February 22, 2018, 05:48:37 PM

OOC - The current treaty is below

Spoiler: The Mundus Convention on Universal Rights • show

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/EE_H%C3%A4%C3%A4demeeste.png)

INVITATION TO ISKOR TO REAFFIRM/AMEND THE MCUR

It has been brought to my attention that the Mundus Conventional of Universal Rights has failed in one of its articles. When the nations of the world gathered to sign the original treaty it included in Article 17.2 the wording "States party to this Convention shall attend an annual Universal Rights Conference on Universal Rights Day to reinforce and reaffirm each State’s commitment to Universal Rights, eject States who do not fulfil their obligations and, where all states party to the Convention agree, revise or amend the Convention." To date there has been no such conference.

With this in mind and because Lodja have concerns regarding some aspects of the current agreement I would like to invite all nations, both signatories and prospective signatories to join me in my birth city of Iskor in order to review and if appropriate sign an amended version of the MCUR. It is my hope that we can finally come up with an agreement the whole of Mundus can abide by.

Signed in hope

Queen Klara II of Lodja
Guardian of Sessifet.
Grand Cordon of the Supreme Order of the Phoenix.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: DaveIronside on February 22, 2018, 08:00:56 PM

(http://i62.tinypic.com/wbxkwm.jpg)

To Her Majesty Queen Klara II

As a founder signatory nation of the MCUR I am more than happy for us to attend your meeting in order to hear your concerns and if possible improve upon the MCUR. I look forward to visiting Iskor in the near future.

May The Gods Watch Over You and Your Nation Know Peace
King David III of East Moreland.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on February 22, 2018, 08:48:12 PM

(https://i.imgur.com/k1bVUye.png)

To Her Majesty Queen Klara II

Achkaerin is one of of the founding signatories of the MCUR, we have over time come to realize in several circumstances since it's inception and entering into force that there are issues with it. Therefore I thank you for arranging this meeting, as was the case when the Treaty was conceived Achkaerin will be represented by my daughter Crown Princess Serenity, on this occasion I will also ask Senator Melinda Carter Achkaerin's EDI Minister to attend.

Yours

(https://i.imgur.com/c2LWfR4.png)

Emperor Peter Azurewind of Achkaerin

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Beatrice on February 22, 2018, 08:58:44 PM

(http://s21.postimg.org/sot9p8zmf/Rok_Ban.png)
Reaffirmation And Amendment Of The MCUR

As one of the original signatories of the Mundus Convention For Universal Rights I welcome the opportunity for our nations to join together as we review and, if necessary, amend this most crucial Treaty. Forwarding the values and principles upon which the MCUR was founded affords us an opportunity to ensure its continued potency and relevance as we move into the future.

It shall be my pleasure to visit Iskor on behalf of the First Empire and look forward to a productive and beneficial discussion. Joining me shall be Lord High Steward Koizumi as he continues his preparations to assume the duties of the Vicegerency following my return to military service.

Respectfully;

Euphemia Anselmo
Vicegerent of Rokkenjima
Princess of Estvua

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on February 27, 2018, 11:50:26 AM

OOC- Even if you haven't RSVP'd feel free to arrive.

(http://russiatrek.org/images/photo/sochi-russia-city-scenery.jpg)

The Pelagiya family had been rather busy over the last few days, it wasn't every day the Queen of Lodja came to visit your estate, let alone bring with them the many esteemed dignatries that had agreed to come. Security at the islands tiny regional airport was tight, they'd even drafted in members of East Moreland's respected Red Legion who were in country helping train the Lodjain Commando unit that was being formed. Many locals had arrived to catch a glimpse of their new Queen, there was an added buzz around the coastal resort town of Iskor, it was the first time they'd be welcoming back home Tatiana, now Queen Klara, the 18 year old monarch had grown up in the city, spent her times on its sandy beaches and was a member of the prestigious dance school on the island. For the Pelagiya family it was also the first time Stasya had been home in almost a year, her duties as a Lady in Waiting had kept her busy, it would feel strange her being here but as part of the Queen's retinue.

The Duke of Pelagiya, a small village that had long been absorbed into Iskor, was Stasya's father Tobias, he also held the title of Sheriff of Iskor, a title that no longer meant he was responsible for law and order but was rather a ceremonial role of swearing in new judges and policemen. It meant he knew most of the men and women who now double checked the security arrangements for the conference. He and his wife would be the first to greet the Queen and then officially hand over their home to her for as long as she needed.

As the Queen touched down in her private plane photographers jostled for the best view of her arrival. Groups of well wishers lined the airport fence some holding signs. Dressed in the traditional blue and gold dress Queen Klara descended the steps, she lacked the floating nature of her predecessor but still proved to be graceful. A loud cheer went up and she waved to the crowd as she made her way towards the Duchess of Pelagiya, Anuoshka. The Duchess bowed and was surprised that Klara hugged her, "The family of my Ladies are my family" the Queen said as she pulled away. "Thank you for your hospitality, I know it must be a great inconvenience but I so wanted to come home." the Queen walked with the Duchess towards her waiting car, "Perhaps you would do me the favour of staying here and welcoming the others, I shall leave Lady Stasya with you, it'll give you chance to catch up." With that the Queen was gone off to the estate a short drive away along the white sandy coast.

"Well, hows things with the new Queen?" Annoushka asked her daughter.

"Great, she's a lot more exciting" Stasya said, "She likes to get out and about, less time in the Conclave room, I think the Ministers are a little concerned as she drags them with her, says the Conclave is a group of people not a room."

"And you looking forward to seeing your lover again?" The mother teased her daughter over her relationship with King David, the two women shared everything and of course the Pelagiya family would be rather pleased to have the influence of a foreign monarch on their side. "If you hadn't got your claws into him I think I'd have made him husband number two." she chuckled.

"It was good seeing him at the coronation" Stasya smiled fond of the memory of their night together. "Just keep it quiet, its not the time nor place" the daughter chastised her mother. There was no time for a response as the first aircraft began its approach to the islands tiny airport.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: DaveIronside on February 27, 2018, 02:52:01 PM

King David had no idea why he was so nervous, he'd been to literally hundreds of diplomatic meetings, he'd even been an original delegate at the creation of the MCUR and had been one of the few to demand amendments, but today he was rather more on edge. He was joined on the flight by the nations Prime Minister, Henrietta Quinn, she'd after all started East Moreland on international diplomacy as the co-author of the Cultural Exchange Treaty Organisation, she was calm as she knew the King would take the lead during talks. The truth was the King realised he was nervous because of where they were going, Iskor, a place where he'd be meeting Stasya's parents, the thought made him smile, it was the same feeling he'd had when he first meet Lord Osman his former father-in-law.

As the aircraft touched down he instantly recognised Stasya stood on the tarmac beside a woman he'd briefly meet at Freya's wedding. He took a deep breath as he pulled on his jacket and strapped on his ceremonial sword. He kept his eyes on Stasya as he approached and shook hands with the Duchess.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on February 27, 2018, 05:15:19 PM

Serenity Azurewind (https://independentorder.net/index.php?topic=49.msg170#msg170), Crown Princess of Achkaerin sat aboard one of the Achkaerin Royal Family's aircraft as it headed to Lodja, the interior of the aircraft was split into mini rooms so Serenity was presently sat on the bed in what was her bedroom while aboard, a useful thing considering that Lodja was on the other side of the world from Achkaerin, she glanced over her shoulder at the mirror on the wardrobe door, the white sleeveless top she was wearing meant that the tattoo (http://orig04.deviantart.net/6727/f/2013/174/4/4/1013898_10151729081959414_1376300325_n_by_chelseasnow-d6a9o46.jpg) on the back of her right shoulder was visible. She was in a bit of a nostalgic mood, the last time she'd been anywhere to discuss the Mundus Convention of Universal Rights had been when the Convention had been first conceived and hammered out but on the flight home her plane had been taken over by the Borland Separatists and she'd spent three days locked into a battle of wits and survival with Kyle Barren. The tattoo was a reminder of that time as it had come about following a surgical procedure that Serenity had undergone following her escape and rescue. It also seemed that her father wasn't taking any chances on this occasion as very unusually four Harpy's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29K#Specifications_(MiG-29K)) had flown the trip as escorts, usually only two were assigned to this duty.

She felt the plane touch down and slow to a halt, picking up her leather jacket she stood and made her way into the main cabin where she found her companion for the trip Senator Melinda Carter (https://independentorder.net/index.php?topic=49.msg4960#msg4960), the EDI Minister in Achkaerin - EDI stood for Equality, Diversity and Inclusion.
"Are you ready Senator?" Serenity asked as she put her jacket on
"Yes Your Highness." Melinda said, she'd been going over some notes and doing her homework this was her first major trip abroad and the Senator was a little nervous, Serenity by comparison was far more experienced in this.
"Let's go." Serenity said

Serenity and Melinda descended the aircraft stairs Serenity's eyes honed in on the small group already present - Lodja, East Moreland and Baltikum. The Achkaerinese pair made their way towards the group, Serenity would at one time have been nervous herself but she'd done this so many times now, she shook first the hosts hand and then each of the other people present making sure to introduce Melinda to each of them.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: CGJ on February 28, 2018, 02:02:07 AM

John Lankly MP, the Dartfordian Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, arrived shortly after the Azurewinds. He had been sent to represent the government on his own, aside from his own officials. The previous time they had come together, it had been led by HRH the Princess Georgia, and this was perhaps indicative of the government's lack of...over-enthusiasm towards the treaty. Nevertheless, the government were prepared to seek to apply a long-standing multi-party belief - that an international court should be established to enforce MCUR.

He entered the hall, approaching some other delegates.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: KrisNord on February 28, 2018, 11:02:38 AM

It was well known that the people of Nya Åland had long refused to be part of the MCUR, in their eyes it took away rights of a nation to select its own path and was something designed to weaken culture, however Stein Ulfsson, the new Head Gothi understood the way things could be seen around the world and so was of course keen to at least be seen to do the right thing. With that in mind he had made the relatively short trip to Iskor via boat and had driven to the airfield to meet the rest. He recognised a faces that would be considered friends to Nya Åland, in particular the Achakerin and East Moreland representatives. He didn't know many of the others and therefore ensured he headed straight for King David. "Your Majesty, I'd just like to say thank you for your nations aid, I know my predecessor counted on your nation as a great friend and I hope I can continue that." He turned to Serenity, "and please pass on my same wishes to your father." He waited for the official welcoming party to be finished greeting the delegates from Heyra before making his own introductions.

Meanwhile as expected with anything going on in Albion it was left to Prince Lennox to attend on behalf of the Ui Cenneg government.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: The Young Pope on February 28, 2018, 01:51:18 PM

Pope Peter II was looking forward to this diplomatic gathering, as it was part of his goals to widen ES's horizons and gain new, valuable contacts; an exciting aspect of it all was the fact that one of ES's close allies and friends in the west, Heyra, was to be represented by VPFO Therz, always a pleasure and honor to work alongside he thought for himself, although it was obvious that he was there than to simply admire her good looks. After all ES hasn't signed the MCUR as of yet but TYP would have liked to if certain clauses in contradiction with the Catholic faith would be amended.

"Duchess Annoushka...Lady Stasya...King David himself, Everyone else...our paths intertwine with each other it seems."

Private message to Head Gothi Sten Ulfsson

Greetings my Nordic friend, or so I hope that we are. If not, both of us undertaking this event seems to be a good opportunity to do so. It may not be seen as obvious at first but NÅ and ES are much more similar than we might realise; both countries value the indigenous cultures, values and traditions that are so prised and valuable which means that unless the MCUR would receive some sort of facelift...it would be a shame otherwise. I wish for NÅ and ES to grow ever more closely with each other as neighbours no matter how different are supposed to depend and support one another...I deeply apologise for the lack of ES's absence in the Nordic crisis and now wish to deploy whatever aid is required from you as a form of redemption and committing on "Actions" and not only "Words".

Take Care and God Bless, Sincerely,

Pope Peter II of the Celestian Catholic Church and King-Bishop of ES

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on March 02, 2018, 12:42:56 PM

The Duchesss was rather pleased with the numbers so far, it would of course have been nice if they'd have had the full contingent from the original signing of the treaty but that was highly unlikely. The Duchess ensured that everyone was happy at the airport before ensuring that each of them were put into seperate cars and driven the 5km to the estate, the road wound through woodlands of pine trees until it reached a coastal road, the Alucard was crystal blue on the onside, white foam topped waves lapping on the sand, to the other side unspoilt forests. The white marble Pelagiya estate came into view, the fountain outside spraying a fine mist about the forecourt providing a rather refreshing break from the days heat. Stasya ensured that she and King David, along with Henrietta Quinn got into the last car, she'd have obviously prefered to have been alone with the King but that couldn't be helped.

Upon arrival at the Estate the Queen greeted them all and ushered them into the meeting room, it was usually used as a banqueting room but today had been furnished with a hollow square of tables. Each nation had a tiny flag to mark their spot and a folder and jug of water sat ready, it was iced because even with a nice breeze blowing through the room the temperature was likely to be well above that people like the Alanders were used to. Klara waited for everyone to take their seat before taking her own, Lord Besarian sat to her left and Anna Utkin, her Social Affairs minister sat behind her next to Leading Lady in Waiting Anna Immich. She was nervous, this was her first big speech since her coronation day a month earlier, in that time she'd done her best to grow into the role of Queen but it would still take some time and it ws likely to cause a few raised eyebrows.

"Esteemed guests from across Mundus, I would like to begin by thanking you for agreeing to come here today. I know that Lodja was not an original signatory of the MCUR, however it has been the case that many nations around Mundus have seen fit to not sign in the years that have followed. We must keep in mind that perhaps this means the MCUR is not fit for purpose and as such today is an oppurtunity to put that right. I however would not have called you here today had I not got something to offer these talks.

My first concern is this, the original MCUR is nothing short of a form of Cultural Imperialism, it was brought about by nations to reflect their way of life, assuming that to be the supreme one. There are many parts of that charter that do not stand compatible with Lodjain culture for example, one such case of this is Article 12 which currently states marriage is between two people. In Lodja a woman may take more than one husband, this is part of our faith and therefore including this in the charter actually imposes on our right of religion. A further issue is that the charter also forbids arranged marriages, it is custom in my own nation for example that my first marriage is selected for me by the Conclave, a symbol of trust between myself, Sessifet and her people. When Queen Viktoriya married Roman Chownyk Lodja technically violated the current MCUR. Now clearly the concept of monogamy will be something favoured by nations like the Ecclesiastical State, or East Moreland and their Cult of Helus, but as the charter stands our religious way of life her in Lodja is impeded.

The second concern I have is that the charter is hypocritical. The charter mentions the word "demoratic" seven times, yet when we look at the nations who have signed it many are not what people would consider democratic. We have for example East Moreland, a nation ruled by a monarch who can at a word overule the nations elected council. We have Lodja, where not every citizen is permitted to vote, and Rokkenjima a nation where the Empress has great power and that has just changed without a single vote being cast, meaning a great deal of power and influence sits in the hands of an unelected official. The charter assumes that only those people in a full democracy can experience human rights, that is far from the case. Lodja for example is not a place where people face abuses on a daily basis, yet according to this charter we are seen as a problem.

Thirdly the charter does not allow for nations to reflect the wishes of their people, something a democracy which the charter seems to favour would wish. The charter in several places restricts national sovereignty. For example, imagine a referendum in Lodja taking place, a true democratic ideal, at it voted to introduce a death penalty, we would be banned from doing so because of the MCUR. Therefore how can we be democratic? The will of the people can not be carried through. Even in the Right to Employment we have a clause saying everyone has the right to equal pay, would it not be right for people to be allowed to work for what they feel in their best interest. If someone is willing to work for less in order to ensure in tough economic times should it not be their right to negotiate their own wage? We have a section of the charter that reads "Technical and professional education shall be made widely available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit." which again imposes an international outlook on our nation. We also have the MCUR imposing budgets on nations by saying, "Everyone has the right to free and universal non-cosmetic medical treatment, including that of a psychological nature, in their country of origin. " Again what right does the world have to determine how our nation spends its tax funds, for example we charge higher taxes than a nation like Heyra, and we do provide free basic health care, however I suspect Heyra, a nation that has much lower taxes will do so in order to allow its citizens to make decisions on their own health care provision. The MCUR therefore forces Heyra to take part of their narrow government budget to make this provision.

I am aware several other nations will have issues with this charter. I therefore have taken the liberty of providing each of you with my initial thoughts on the matter."

Spoiler: show

"I therefore open the floor to other opinions."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: The Young Pope on March 02, 2018, 03:55:51 PM

The Pope took his time to read through the first of many proposed alterations to the original MCUR charter which prevented the Ecclesiastical State from signing due to a conflict between religious faith and what the clauses stated, at least this was now an opportunity to haggle forth favorable conditions for countries such as ES where the traditional view on marriage is still strictly applied.

"I agree with my Lodjain colleague here about the old MCUR charter, which was indeed only promoting some sort of cultural imperialism and hypocricy at the highest level, such a laughable state of clauses I dare say, taking only into account those who've drafted it in the first place and expect everyone else in Mundus to exercise the same practices and values...In any case I don't have much to complain about, what her majesty suggested sounds good in my ears...however there's always that clause which seems to put everything on a ice hold...Article 12.1 regarding the institution of marriage...as everyone here knows well that ES is one of those countries where marriages of same-sex couples are highly controversial if I were to say it as mildly as possible. I suppose this could be solved by mentioning the term 'civil partnerships' as this is otherwise allowed in the Church State, performed in licensed facilities by secular registrators for instance.

I also have another question...does the MCUR somewhere along the lines fully require that same-sex couples should and can be able to adopt children? That's everything that I got to have a word on, will come back with eventual questions naturally..."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on March 02, 2018, 07:53:03 PM

And now I wonder what possessed me to say that I'd put myself through this for the second time Serenity thought, this conference had started out pretty much the same as the first one had. Only where it had been Dominiscius last time it was the Ecclesiastical State this time. Though the suggestion of cultural imperialism and hypocrisy was laughable. She read the proposed changes and as her eyes went down the document the alarm bells started ringing.

"Myself and King David had the opportunity to represent our respective nations at the table when this Convention was originally agreed. Now I read the draft proposal for the currently in force charter on the flight down from Achkaerin to Dartfordia. And it didn't take much working out to realize that the major negotiating battle was going to be over Articles twelve and thirteen, the right to marry and the right to change gender. So I'm a more than a little disappointed to see that article thirteen has been removed from this proposed redraft with no apparent reasoning for the decision which is baffling considering that what that article amounted to was an recognition that people have a right to change their gender and to have gender reassignment surgery where possible, that if the surgery is not available in their country they can go elsewhere to have it and return home without facing prejudice - by which we mean criminal charge, and also a note that if such a change happened in a marriage it would still be considered valid. I would request an explanation from our host as to why that has been removed given that it is a safeguarded provision that doesn't infringe on any nation's sovereignty or budget. I propose its reinstatement.

The reason here is that articles twelve and thirteen, whether you agree with them or not, have come to symbolise the recognized rights of the LGBT community on an international level, this is a community that includes prominent people such as my cousin and the former leader of the UNP. Use of the words "sexual orientation" in article twelve gives support to same sex relationships recognizing them as lawful under certain circumstances, the right to change gender as article thirteen recognizes the rights of those in society who are transgender. So we have before us an international signed by a diverse range of nations in terms of religion, ethnicity, ideology and other aspects and I'll tell you it took a lot of intense negotiation to get what we have, to step back from that would be seen as an outright betrayal of that community. I don't see the value in opening up a Pandora's Box when we don't need to.

Now in respect to the points raised by the Pope let's not see road blocks where there aren't any. Article twelve is termed the right to marry because it applies to everyone - heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual it is not called the right to same sex marriage, it simply includes that within its scope which does make the article a bit of a misnomer in title. The actual legalities are left to individual nations as stated in 12.1 "according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right" now in simple terms that means the right to marry, by which we mean enter into a lifelong partnership, is applicable to everyone regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, now if nations wish to call homosexual weddings civil partnerships or something else because they do not wish to offend the sanctity of marriage then they are welcome to do so, however I make it clear that Achkaerin does support same sex marriages as do at last check the various religious leaders within her borders.

Article 12.2 is simply an affirmation of the legal status of a same sex marriage or union as outlined within the scope of 12.1 that they be afforded the same legal standing as the traditional understanding of marriage which is the heterosexual one.

12.3 is in simple terms stating the obvious about where legally wedding ceremonies can take place and includes by implication the right of religious institutions to refuse such ceremonies on their premises. While 12.4 clarifies that the parties must give their free and formal consent without influence. However despite all of this it is a liitle clunky so if I may I propose the following as article 12

Quote

Article 12 – Right to Marry

1. Any persons of marriageable age, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, have the right to marry and to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.

2. Parties to same sex unions are entitled to equal rights as those parties to heterosexual marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

3. A matrimonial ceremony may take place in any location licensed or authorised by the state without prejudice, save for ceremonies taking place in or officiated by a religious institution.

4. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses, and where the matrimony is not unduly influenced by a third party.

Now in terms of the issue of same sex couples adopting children, that isn't explicitly covered by the Convention but as is stated in 12.1 a same sex couple would have the right to marry and to found a family. So how does a same sex couple found a family? IVF, surrogate mother, adoption? Now each state has its own rules governing adoption procedures and reasons for refusal and in all honesty I would be seriously worried if the reason for refusing an adoption was that the couple was homosexual.

My other issue is in regards to article 20 which states "The High Contracting Parties agree that, except by special agreement, they will not avail themselves of treaties, conventions or declarations in force between them for the purpose of submitting, by way of petition, a dispute arising out of the interpretation or application of this Convention." No such special agreement exists which means we have no enforcement mechanism to deal with breaches of this treaty nor do we have a body whose responsibility it is to come to a consensus on the interpretation of this treaty. I therefore would to propose that following renegotiating the treaty that we then discuss how we deal with this point."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: CGJ on March 02, 2018, 08:11:22 PM

John Lankly stood next. "There are certainly some interesting points in this proposal. I think it's best we start with what we agree on. We would support the amendments to Article 1, we'll tolerate the removal of the word 'democratic' - although we don't believe this is necessary, we'll also tolerate the amendment to Article 15.2.

"In terms of disagreement: we oppose the amendments brought to Articles 12 and 14 by Your Majesty. The amendments are seemingly being brought in to protect the rights of nations, except Article 19 mandates that the contents of the treaty do not restrict any additional rights. In the case of equal pay, it merely entitles individuals to the right to equal pay, if they should choose to earn less...then that is their prerogative. On marriage, article 12 has the potential to make polygamy a universal right. The Dartfordian government does not have a position on this, although we would want it to be subject to a full debate and not considered as a technical amendment.

"I would however, like to fully support Her Royal Highness Princess Serenity in her views on articles 12 and 13. For article 12 we certainly prefer the original wording of the treaty, but are willing to consider our position. We do not support, in any way, the repeal of Article 13."

"We are further generally opposed to the other amendments in this treaty, as we believe that they will undermine the original purpose of the treaty. The right to universal healthcare and education on the basis of merit were key discussion points in Churchill, where we signed the original treaty, and we maintain the position my predecessor took on that occasion. However, we are willing to reconsider this position, and we will await the views of our esteemed colleagues from our allies.

"I would like to present to this family of nations, however, the notion of the implementation of a Protocol to enable the enforcement of the Treaty, as we had originally intended in 2014, by an independent, international court. I would like to hear the views of my esteemed colleagues on such matters."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Beatrice on March 02, 2018, 08:17:59 PM

"I find myself in agreement with my colleagues from Achkaerin and Dartfordia and share the concerns and proposals which have been put forth," Koizumi said in follow-up to Serenity. "In addition I find it concerning that our host finds issue with the concept of equal pay, an issue which has the possibility to impact countless families and individuals alike. While it is clear that the MCUR is due for a review, a fundamental alteration of the rights and principles upon which it is based most certainly raises concerns of regression. I shall be welcome to hearing the reasoning behind such decisions, however, at this time I would not be able to lend my support to the initial proposal as put forth."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Arda Tuluva on March 03, 2018, 04:52:13 PM

First Minister Cormarë Vercatauronámë (https://independentorder.net/index.php?topic=316.msg1655#msg1655) was the next to speak. She stood and turned to face Lodja’s Queen, “Your Divine Majesty,” she said bowing low to Queen Klara “Your Royal Majesty.” She bowed again, albeit not as low, to King David. “Your Holinesses,” bowing first in order of Precedence in Arda Tuluva to the Head Gothi and then the Pope, “Your Imperial and Royal Highness.” She said to Serenity with another bow. “Your Regal Highness.” She stated to Rokkenjima’s Princess Euphemia. “Honorable representatives, national delegates.” She finished bowing twice more, pivoting slightly to the right then to the left.

“The Arda Tuluvan Empire applauds the efforts and convictions of Her Divine Majesty to amend the Treaty of the Mundus Convention on Universal Rights.” She bowed again to the Lodjan Queen. “For many years Arda Tuluva had shied away from ratifying this treaty do to its language and certain articles that run contrary to the harmony of the rituals and regulations that guide the Empire ever forward.

“It may not be known by some, but Arda Tuluvan state philosophy highly promulgates the notions and the importance of names, definitions, and meaning. Before laws are enacted in the Empire a lengthy process is carried out to formulate the correct and prescribed language in accordance to the harmony of State philosophy and doctrine. It is, therefore, extremely important to the Empire that the words used within this treaty be correct, else the Empire cannot be beholden to a treaty that is in ere.

“Therefore, we propsse the following changes the Mundus Convention on Universal Rights:

“Article 5.1 should be written as ‘No one shall be held in forced slavery or servitude.’”

“Article 7.1 'in a democratic society' should be removed.

“Article 7.2, is a rather interesting case. In Arda Tuluva accused are seen as neither guilty nor innocent. We call this cámimbë, ‘they who stand in between’, would be the best translation. It has been decided by the Presidium that – if – the Empire were to ratify this treaty we would only be beholden to the official Quenya translation of this charter. Therefore, we kindly request that Article 7.2 be officially translated as:

Illi oquotë i ongwëa trosennen nauvar eperúcië cámimbë tenna todistë cáma mácernócatië nórëa sanyërnen ar axaninen.

"The word for innocent, which in the divine tongue is vatomano, has been replaced with cámimbë. Let it be known, that there is no cultural taboo or legal restriction for those who are cámimbë. It is held in balance, it a more philosophical ideal than anything. But, we cannot allow the accused to be presumed completely innocent, it would disrupt the harmony of our entire justice system.”

The Arda Tuluvans had no qualms with the other articles, they were vague enough to allow the State its control. The Empire also was extremely obsessed with defining and the naming of all things; as the state philosophy of Mindarucinism prescribes. Arda Tuluva defines religion as the practice and worship of the faith that aligns with and is in accordance to the harmony of State philosophy and doctrine.

Belief in Arda Tuluva is defined in two ways: (1) an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof, that aligns with and is in accordance to the harmony of State philiopshy and doctrine; and (2) trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something that aligns with and is in accordance to the harmony of State philiopshy and doctrine. Otherwise the belief is untrue and, therefore, not considered belief but a false notion.

“Article 12.1, should state ‘persons of marriageable age’. It is therefore allowed to regulation of how one defined marriage. Persons can be defined as two or more with restriction to whom one can and cannot marry.”

“As in regard to Her Imperial and Royal Majesty’s proposed amendments to Article 12. The wording of the proposed Article 12.2: 'Parties to same sex unions are entitled to equal rights as those parties to heterosexual marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.'. This cannot stand in its current formula. By imposing the words ‘equal rights as’, implies that same-sex unions are considered to be beneath those of opposite-sex couples and thus, only through, this charter does it become elevated. Arda Tuluva has never held taboo against same-sex relations nor imposed laws prohibiting their unions. Though, we understand that many a nation still have strange thoughts on the subject and prohibit the practice.

“Also, each nation defined marriage in different ways. Therefore, instead of adding another section simply amended the first to: Persons of marriageable age, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, have the right to marry, enter into a union, and to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.”

“We certainly agree with Her Imperial and Royal Highness that Article 13 should be reinstated. The Empire finds no reason why this Article has been removed.”

“On Article 14.2, let it be known that the Empire is in favor of maintaining its present wording from the original Charter, however we have no qualms for or against its removal. We have already regulated Equal Pay Laws within the Empire.”

“Let it be known we are in agreement with the amendments made to Article 15. The Empire shall not allow any charter or treaty to impose a teaching curriculum upon Her Sublime Majesty’s subjects that run contrary to the harmony of Arda Tuluva’s state philosophy and doctrine.”

It was a well-known fact that Arda Tuluvans were extremely superstitious people. Almost everyone had a personal astrologer, fortune teller, osteopath, and herbalist. However, the government prescribed that modern medicine must also be taken into account when concerning a person’s wellbeing. “The Arda Tuluvan Presidium would like greater clarification exactly what Article 16.4 means by ‘culturally appropriate care’ and ‘different ways of life.’ If there is an epidemic it shall be treated and will not be encumbered because some think a crystal or prayer will save them.”

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on March 03, 2018, 10:51:11 PM

Alarm bells were ringing in Serenity's head again and she was willing to bet it wasn't only in her head that it was happening. Or was it maybe the pins and needles developing in her ankle?

"The principle of article 12.1 is a statement that anyone irrespective or race, gender or sexual orientation is permitted to marry or enter into the equivalent status as defined by national law that's what the currently in force article says. Article 12.2 forms the other half of this in terms of legal status and an affirmation that a same sex marriage or union is regarded in legal terms as the same as that of an opposite sex one. Now I would love to live in a world where that point does not need to be explicitly made but sadly that is not the case.

Now it would seem there is a concerted number of us asking the question of why article 13 was removed, I'm sure we will get an answer but given the narrow scope of the article in a practical sense I fail to see what could prompt it's removal. I also fail to see why we would seek to invite the backlash that such a move would bring."

Serenity paused for a moment gathering her thoughts

"Now as for the proposal in regards to article 7.2 I must declare my adamant opposition. For two reasons first the presumption of innocence that is to say innocent until proven guilty is the single most important principle in Achkaerin's legal system. The presumption means that everyone knows that the accused are considered innocent and that therefore the burden of proof falls on the prosecution. Now to take a position where the accused is presumed as neither guilty or innocent is to my mind to split the burden and that's not a good thing because that seems to suggest that we're getting into the realms of the defence having to prove innocence and that's something that should never have to be proved. Now I'm sure in Arda Tuluva that such a system works fine but this is an international document which nations are going to sign, some are already signatory to the original. The point is that some articles like 12.1 can be adapted to cover all bases the First Minister has given an appropriate wording of that, but something like article 7.2 does not afford us that opportunity it is a very specific clause so our wiggle room is greatly reduced.

The second reason this is opposed is that article 7 of this Convention is also included in the Uppsalla Convention, as is article 4 and article 6. Consequently any amendments to those three articles by proxy amends the Uppsalla Convention, something I would rather we did not get into.

This Convention is the example of what can be achieved when nations come together to try to make the world a better place for everybody without prejudices based on race, gender, faith or sexuality, let's not curtail what's been accomplished, by all means add to it, widen things out, be more inclusive but don't sacrifice the spirit of articles or the spirit of the Convention in doing so let's look at what could be added to the Convention rather than consider what to take out."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on March 04, 2018, 04:10:54 PM

Klara had been scribbling down as things were being said, "My reason for eliminating Article 13 is because in Lodja we do not recognise it is possible to change gender. It is our stance that what genetiles you have do not define your gender, it is what the Goddess saw fit to grace you as upon your birth. Now we also have no issue with someone wishing to change their outward appearence. Article 13 therefore is asking us to recognise something a Lodjain would not view as possible. It would be like asking any of you here present to grant protection to Dragons under the remit of a Wild Mundus Organisation charter." she hoped she'd made herself clear.

"It seems no one has any objection to the removal of the 7 mentions of the word democratic, can I take it then that we're agreed that can be removed?" she looked around the table before continuing, "So in terms of what else has been brought up we now have the suggestion that Article 5 read, " No one shall be held in forced slavery or servitude." Personally I believe this is tidying up that article and do not object to it. As for Article 7 it is all well and good Achkaerin arguing that changing it could potentially undermine their legal premis, but by not doing so undermines Arda Tuluva's, I agree that this is a sound article to have, however its something we must find a compromise on, perhaps the wording could be changed to something like this. "2. It shall be expected that a person's rights are not infringed until found guilty of a crime they are charged with." It is something that will need looking at otherwise once again we stand at a point where cultural imperialism is going to be taking place."

Article 12 was the one that was going to cause concerns, "I personally like the suggestion by Princess Serenity, I also believe the wording of 12.1 should reassure the Ecclesiastical State, that those marrying abroad say and then returning home would be guided by ES law on say adoption. By the same measure it would not stop a couple potentially adopting from another nation. I think this should also put Heyra's mind at ease, after all they can establish their own laws about families."

"Moving onto Arda Tuluva's concerns about Article 16. I suspecut "Culturally appropriate" would for example mean that blood products not be used on say a Jeohovah's Witness, as for different ways of life I suspect this may be a reference to a vegeterian, for example would they be morally happy to accept say a heart valve from a pig? I don't know but this is the kind of situation I think it is trying to clear up, therefore making doctors more aware of the need to consider patients as individuals. I hope this clears things up."

"Now in terms of moving things forward I suggest we go one concern at a time. So far we have had no objections to removing the word "democracy" so unless anyone now gives me a reason why that shouldn't happen can I assume it's gone?" She looked up and down the table, "Following that I would ask does anyone have any obejctions or suggestions to Princess Serenities rewording of Article 12?"

Spoiler: Original Text of 12 • show

Spoiler: Proposed New Text • show

"Once this Article is determined I suggest we move to Article 13 and then 7 as they are likely to be the ones most contencious."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on March 04, 2018, 11:42:10 PM

"The only thing I would suggest in regards to this amendment, and this will likely sound weird considering it is an amendment I proposed" Serenity said "Is adjusting 12.1 to "Persons of marriageable age, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, have the right to marry, enter into a union, and to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.” essentially amending it to this wording, suggested by the Arda Tuluvan First Minister, broadens the interpretation of the article while also retaining it's intent and spirit. It further allows us to avoid getting into the theological debate over the definition of marriage which as I recall was a major hurdle the last time around."

With her point made Serenity glanced at Melinda and then over at her host
"Your Majesty may I be excused for a few moments?" Serenity asked

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Norgeras on March 05, 2018, 10:15:48 PM

Robert of Niameck (https://independentorder.net/index.php?topic=149.msg890#msg890) had been sitting silently on the sideline, listening carefully to the debate while leaning holding his walking cane in tight grip. Only as the discussion seems to go back and forth, he decided to slowly get up and adress the dignitaries:

"While i respect the Notion, i do not think we will be able to work out a Solution if we keep on discussing everything at the same Time. It has been clear already there are red lines some of us can not cross, keeping us from signing a declaration that in it's core is good. Why don't we, for now, gather every issue and paragraph Nations wish to amend, or would need to have amended, and then work in smaller groups what exactly amendment we can agree upon. "

The old man coughed holding himself up on his cane: "I see little point in attempting to try and discuss everything at once. We from the Empire of Neu Uburzis can't agree with article thirteen at all, Cosmetic Surgeries just don't change your gender. It is a pretense that our medicine is capable of feats that are but deceit in this regard. And we will not have our legal documents filled with pretense and wishful thinking."

Slowly sitting down again, the old man kept looking around: "Also we can not agree with Article 16. Especially 16.4 as it opens up every door for discrimination by the patients against staff. They should worry about saving life, not if the Doctor is a Man or a Woman. I can only agree with the changes made to Article 2.1, this document wishes to be about universal rights, not about governing into other nations. I also agree with cutting the part of equal pay in 14.1 - our stance is closer to Heyrans here, if you can't fight for better payment, then you don't get it. We have a Minimum Wage, everything above it is something you have to fight for yourself."

Taking a gulp of Water, he continued: "I would prefer the Article Five only claiming Slavery, servitude and forced servitude is an expression so vague it could mean everything and nothing. I can already hear children and fringe Parents whining about compulsory school. When it comes to 12.1, adding /according to laws governing the exercise of these rights/ basically voids the whole paragraph, allowing nations to do whatever they please by bypassing it with national laws."

Coughing again, the old man continued: "As for Article Seven in the Upsala convention, the Elder senates Opinion is that Upsalla should be amended to have it's own articles not depending on a different piece of paper tos tart with, so it is, in our opinion, a concern of fault in upsalla itself that needs not be a concern here. Also article Fifteen, we would also wish to see 15.3 removed in addition. This should be a charter of basic human rights, not one governing into national politics."

Scratching his head Rudolph sipped more water: "I am sure i forgot something but for now i think it's all i have to said. Again, i think it would be preferable if we go through this one Article by one instead of trying to solve everything at the same time."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on March 05, 2018, 11:02:33 PM

"With all due respect sir." Melinda said, with Serenity having excused herself for the moment the Achkaerinese Minister was in the chair for the moment "We are taking this one section at a time, presently discussing article 12 after which we'll move to 13 followed by 7 and then anything else that needs dealing with as Her Majesty indicated." while she'd been speaking she'd been writing a note which when she'd finished it she placed face down on the table and slid it down the table to the Pope. The truth was simple this wasn't going to go anywhere except failure unless moves got made and the Crown Princess's absence from the table for the moment was the signal of her intention to get started making inroads.

Outside Serenity was making sure to deeply inhale the fresh air, she'd been to enough summits like this to know that the hard work went on away from the table she glanced down at her phone when it buzzed - a message from Melinda Neu Uburzi's oppose 13 - Gender, Serenity sighed it was almost irritating that the aspect of 13 that was an issue this time around hadn't been an issue the first time. Still her position was clear enough, she couldn't sign a treaty that sacrificed article 13, to do so was to invite a backlash from a community that included a lot of people she knew. It seemed they'd get 12 as there wasn't any real opposition to it. No Article 13 was going to be the battle, she looked at the water in the fountain trying to collect her thoughts, what was the way forward? She'd done her homework in advance of the meeting as she often did but preparation usually went out of the window when it came to the cut and thrust of the table.

She continued to look at her reflection in the water when she started smiling Gotcha she thought, she had the beginnings of an idea now to deal with the one remaining obstacle and if Melinda had sent the note that would be hopefully dealt with soon enough.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: The Young Pope on March 05, 2018, 11:11:45 PM

TYP became utmost curious as soon as note was suddenly in front of him from the Achkaerinese delegation; while most of the guests were pre-occupied with the ongoing discussions that have frankly exhausted his holiness, he quickly took the note from the table and skimm-read it. It seemed as if Princess Serenity wanted to have a word with him out side...Thank God he thought, a great excuse to get some fresh air and relieve some business in the bathroom, with all that protocol one couldn't do as one pleased these days. TYP excused himself from the room and was accompanied by a few GSPT heading first to the bathroom section.

It didn't take a short moment for the Pope to meet Serenity who was admiring the water in the fountain. "It's ok my most loyal servants but you're dismissed...Your highness, I believe that you'd like to have a few words with 'God's' Earthly Representative?" TYP asked in a humorus tone.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on March 05, 2018, 11:53:48 PM

"Amazing what a breath of fresh air and time to think can do to inspire a thought isn't it Your Holiness?" Serenity asked, now becoming unable to hide the beaming almost giggly smile as her brain continued to click together a possible option "Summit's like this there's nothing quite like a break." she paused needing to get serious "If I may put my cards on the table and be candid for a moment, you're a smart enough man to recognize where the fault line is now and you've got enough political understanding to know that there's a group of nations represented in there that can't backtrack. So without some bridge building this seems set up for a failure and collapse on the worst possible point for it to happen. Long story short we're going to need Article 13, now the argument I'm hearing from our hosts is that Gender and Sex are two different things now in my opinion that can be reflected in Article 13. The only unknown is your nations position on that article, I don't know if you have concerns and feel free to tell me what they are but what I'd like to know is this - when the time comes if I table an amendment to 13 that accounts for your concerns if you have any will you support it?"

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: The Young Pope on March 06, 2018, 09:10:10 AM

Peter sighed as he folded his arms, looking into the unknown and had a long thinking, yet another clause which complicated procedures due to different interpretations. Alas one couldn't think for all eternity, so he took hold of Serenity's hands and looked straight into her eyes.

"Serenity, if I may call you by your first name...The amount of times I've looked up upon your family in Mundus as one of the wisest and most open-minded, partly due to our mutual friend Bishop Deed's discussions at the kitchen table but also the achievements I've seen stemming from the Azurewind name...what we can clearly see now isn't just the risk of complicated bureaucracy...it's the lack of something universal as common and obvious...common sense...Which is why on behalf of the Ecclesiastical State I bestow upon you the privilege and blessings to table an amendment to 13 taking in, as much as possible and doesn't need to be perfect on my account, the Catholic Church's teaching on such a lively subject. I may now be the leader of both ES and the CC, but haven't forgotten my true roots...I shall thus give my support."

It was a matter of time before they both returned to the other delegates, though TYP had the opportunity to ask whether, "it would be possible to have dinner with her highness, the Senator and anyone else who'd like to enjoy, a lovely time of food, drink and salacious topics, if one isn't busy this evening that is? It would be nice to have a dinner with one's own countrymen once in a while..."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: BenOfTheIwi on March 06, 2018, 11:08:55 AM

King Piripi's Royal Envoy Taika Sevasi had sat and listened to everything so far. "If I may make an observation, the point made by Her Majesty to begin with about cultural imperialism is a valid one. I look at the list of the original signatory nations and it was formed by nations I would consider to be very liberal. Meanwhile nations such as the Iwi are still tied by many traditions and attitudes, some much more conservative which found even the original MCUR difficult to stomach. That does not mean we go around abusing our citizens far from it. As I look around this table I see three nations that our King recently had various tribes of our nation adopt into their tribe. Our entire society is underpinned by our traditions, why even saying hello in the Iwi has symbolic meaning. He hoped that the Pope, the Achkaerin and Neu Uburzis all understood what he was getting at but he would clearly need to spell it out to the others. "On the grounds of Article 13 for example, our people would have no issue if a man choose to become a woman, or vice versa, but it would carry with it issues, for example tribal chiefdoms pass down the male line, if we are forced to recognise an outward change as being an inward change then that tradition can be changed and that is not something we can tolerate. It is therefore necessary that those who signed the original charter now seek to end the Cultural Imperialism and allow those of us with more conservative cultures to maintain our traditions that have stood us in good stead. It was our shared traditions that allowed our tribes to unite and push the Seleucid from our shores ending some of the worst human rights abuses known to Mundus."

He looked down at his notes, "Now to focus on what Queen Klara has called for which is comments on Article 12, we support its reform. We also broadly speaking think Princess Serenity's amendment is an improvement. However we do have one issue, for a marriage to take place in our society taonga must be paid by the husband to the brides family, think of it as him effectively buying his wife. Should the brides family refuse the taonga then no marriage must take place. In much the same way as the Pope here will ask whether anyone knows of a legal reason as to why a marriage can not take place, a chief or their appointed person officiating a marriage will ask if taonga has been paid. Now if for any reason the marriage fails and a divorce takes place the man receives a refund on his taonga, it is assumed for some reason." he shrugged his shoulders, perhaps a priest back home could tell him. "That a marriage lasts 100 years, the taonga price is divided by 100 and the man receives a refund of the price paid minus a portion for the length of the marriage." He hoped everyone was following his Maori people's explanation. "Now the practice of taonga is not just a religious law in our nation, it is a legal requirement that it be paid, but no price is set that is for the families to determine. Today we see Christian families exchange a symbolic fee of $1 for example. Now assuming we did permit same-sex marriage, how would taonga be handled?" He left the question for a moment, "How upon divorce would it handled? This is a central part of our nations legal system and traditions and sadly incompatible with the current amendments. Now do I think we could get people of The Iwi to support same sex marriage, possibly in time. Would we get the whole of this to pass back home, certainly not. I do therefore have a suggestion."

"This amendment would permit same sex couples all the rights and protections of a legally recognised status without destroying some nations traditions."

Quote from: Article 12 - Right to Legal Unions

1. Any persons of marriageable age, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, have the right to form a Legal Union and to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.

2. Parties to Legal Unions are entitled to equal rights as those parties to heterosexual marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution as prescribed by national law.

3. A legal ceremony may take place in any location licensed or authorised by the state without prejudice, save for ceremonies taking place in or officiated by a religious institution.

4. Legal Unions shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses, and where the matrimony is not unduly influenced by a third party.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: The Young Pope on March 06, 2018, 01:30:07 PM

OOC: Decided to include Baltikum.

President Lavaud was present throughout the meeting, although wasn't as lively compared to the offers, only offering petty comments and enjoying the free coffee, however if there was one thing which made Baltikum easily was the matter of fact that in virtually all issues, there was a neutral stance on all of them. Lavaud simply was there to represent Baltikum and frankly didn't care too much as long as everyone involved agreed on what clauses are to remain and what ought to be changed. Sitting between the Pope and another official, he nonetheless listened eagerly to what everyone had to say.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on March 09, 2018, 01:30:58 PM

Serenity's head dropped, she actually felt like banging it against the table, they'd had this sewn up hadn't they? An amended article 12 that accounted for everyone around the room. She pinched herself, no she wasn't dreaming stay calm and don't show the frustration she mentally told herself, she let out a sigh.

"While I take the point made by the Envoy of the Iwi, I believe that their proposed amendment goes way too far the other way. Under the current charter article 12 is the right to marry, it states that everyone has the right to marry regardless of race, gender and sexual orientation. Quite rightly as I've previously stated this has come to symbolize a declaration of acceptance and recognition for same sex marriage in various nations. Now whatever agreement is reached here is going to be naturally released to the public, it will be compared to the Charter that exists and it will be judged by a whole lot of people who have a vested interest in this." she paused for a moment "Now if we remove the word and any notion of marry from article 12 it is going to be read as a U-turn and we will be accused of backtracking because it will appear that we have decided that the right to marry is no longer such. It is not necessary to invite that and I see no value in doing so.

However that does not change the matter at hand that we must account in this article for everyone, it must be worded in such a way that it is acceptable to those here and those who have vested interests who are not present, without offending anyone whether that be a nation, an individual or a group of society to cause that offense is to see this document fly in the face of the very principles and intent that it stands for. I don't like the idea of diluting Article 12 to the point where we lose the spirit of the article in the translation, so let me offer the following."

Quote

Article 12 - Right to Legal Unions (Right to Marry)

1. Any persons of marriageable age, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, have the right to form a Legal Union and to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.

2. A Legal Union may for the purposes of this document include the following within its definition, the legal status of each shall be subject to the national laws of signatory states:
(a) Heterosexual Marriage
(b) Homosexual (same sex) Marriage
(c) Civil Partnerships

3. Parties to Legal Unions are entitled to equal rights as those parties to heterosexual marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution as prescribed by national law.

4. A Wedding ceremony may take place in any location licensed or authorised by the state without prejudice, save for ceremonies taking place in or officiated by a religious institution.

5. Legal Unions shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses, and where the matrimony is not unduly influenced by a third party.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Norgeras on March 11, 2018, 08:48:55 PM

Robert nodded slowly towards the Iwi's spokeswoman. There was a lot more work to be done on this Paper, but he did like the Approach.

"We might have to change some of our own Law's considering up until now the Senates picked the Emperor's Spouse. But for now i think it is at least worthy of attempting to Discuss it. Even so i would Prefer to just cut the mention of Homosexual Unions for now as well. While we do not Limit them ourselves, i would argue they are hardly a basic right. This whole Paper should be about making it possible for as many Nations to sign it, not push our believes on them. There is another oddity i noticed, and that i would offer as an exchange. The whole Treaty doesn't mention that Sexuality itself is Protected. So i would suggest as this Treaty puts the Horse in front of the Cart, we first add a new Part to Paragraph 8:

8.3 Consensual Acts of Sexuality between Humans of marriageable Age in Privacy are protected from persecution, unless the Life or the Health of the Involved is endangered.

I think trading protection for Homosexuality itself in for it's removal from 12 would be something agreeable. Also this wording would allow Nations to go further if they wish so for themselves."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on March 11, 2018, 10:45:10 PM

Serenity shook her head this was getting into the realms of frustration now wasn't it?

"This is the Mundus Convention of Universal Rights." she said looking straight at Robert "Therefore all the rights included in this document subject to the national laws of the states apply to everyone and must be stated as such. If a heterosexual female such as myself has the right to marry, which is a legal union under this article, then my lesbian cousin has the same right that is what universal means. Or would you like me to get her on the phone so you can tell her that you're proposing cutting the acknowledgement of that right from this treaty?

Article 12 at it's core is stating that every person whether they be the lowest of the low or the highest of the high has the right to 'marry' whomever they wish without external pressure whether that's a heterosexual relationship or a homosexual relationship makes absolutely no difference. Marriage is not founded upon the gender of the parties but upon the feelings of the parties towards each other. It is a right let's make no mistake about that, but we need to be very careful before we start raising obstacles as a reason to oppose it's inclusion because the minute no not even the minute the second we do that we alienate a heck of a lot of people by denying them this recognition in that we end up unwittingly creating a sort of segregation it either applies to everyone or no one. Tempering the articles of the treaty with a healthy respect for the national laws of the signatory states is one thing but what our friend from Neu Uburzi's proposes is another - to cut homosexual unions would be to create a two tiered human rights element to this declaration which will forever taint it.

So far no one has made a credible argument to dramatically change the spirit or intent of article 12, the wording of the Iwi proposal is acceptable I simply propose the new article 12.2 is included as a clarification point, the safeguarded nature of the new 12.2 also means that what falls within the limits of a legal union is determined by each signatory state as stated while providing the reference list of what can be considered such a union. This way we allow the maximum number of nations to sign it and no belief is forced on anyone as it is permissible for a state that doesn't recognize same sex marriage to say "No" as the definition of what is included within the definition of a Legal Union is left to each state, while also satisfying the community that has a vested interest in this article."

Serenity paused, calming her anger as best she could, she took a sip of her drink

"As for the proposed addition to article eight, if it's something people want to discuss then we can add it to the list but I would be minded to suggest that such an amendment is unnecessary as it duplicates the purpose of article 8.1 which states "Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence." that by definition includes their sexuality and sexual activity. Therefore homosexuality is already protected and as no one has suggested the removal of article 8 it will continue to be protected. Article 12 is about the right to marry or form a partnership with another person with the intent of spending the rest of your life with them and to have a family with them, some of that does overlap with Article 8 but crucially the actual questions of "Can a heterosexual marry?" and "Can a homosexual marry?" are not covered by article 8 and must therefore be covered by article 12, to not acknowledge it is to create a mess. What is presented in terms of my latest amendment is something that should be acceptable to every nation here on all the levels it needs to be."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on March 15, 2018, 10:02:24 PM

Klara stood once more, "Please may we stick to one Article at a time, there is the current proposal that we redraft Article 12 to read as follows." She took a note of Lord Besarian who had been sat next to her scribbling away frantically as people had been talking, Klara gave him a simple nod of thanks before taking a breath and reading it word for word."

Quote from: Article 12 - Right to Legal Unions (Right to Marry)

1. Any persons of marriageable age, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, have the right to form a Legal Union and to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.

2. A Legal Union may for the purposes of this document include the following within its definition, the legal status of each shall be subject to the national laws of signatory states:
(a) Heterosexual Marriage
(b) Homosexual (same sex) Marriage
(c) Civil Partnerships

3. Parties to Legal Unions are entitled to equal rights as those parties to heterosexual marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution as prescribed by national law.

4. A Wedding ceremony may take place in any location licensed or authorised by the state without prejudice, save for ceremonies taking place in or officiated by a religious institution.

5. Legal Unions shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses, and where the matrimony is not unduly influenced by a third party.

"I propose we break for twenty minutes to allow anyone neccessary to make the needed phone calls home if they must. Then we shall return and vote as to whether we shall accept or decline this amendment." Klara shut her folder and without a word headed for the door followed by Lady Jasmina who flung the door open for the Queen who before she left turned once more, "Please feel free to enjoy the grounds, the refreshments and the like, I personally shall go enjoy the view over the sea." and with that she disappeared to the rear patio of the villa and sat enjoying a glass of orange juice.

OOC- In the interest of keeping this moving I'm giving people until Monday 10pm UK time to do any RPing of backstairs deals, talks etc, and then vote.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: DaveIronside on March 17, 2018, 11:35:45 AM

East Moreland fully supports the amendment to Article 12

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Major Jaws on March 17, 2018, 03:49:18 PM

King Lapu, who has fallen asleep on his place, was awoken by his seatmate and friend, The Young Pope. “Just in time to vote, I guess.” He said as he slightly stretched his arms as to not gain that much attention from other leaders. Squinting and blinking his eyes and sipping water, he listened as much as he could from what the Lodjian Queen was saying. Of course, if it’s about marriage, especially that of homosexual and polygamous relationships, he would have little to no regulations on it. This might anger the Catholic majority but the nation has allowed a very liberal approach to marriage for a few decades now that it’s nothing much of a problem. King Lapu stood up from his sweat soaked seat as he wandered around. Ten minutes later, he returned to his seat to cast his vote agreeing on the redraft on the right to marry.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on March 17, 2018, 04:55:18 PM

Achkaerin votes in favour of the amendment to article 12

Serenity was sat outside by the fountain on the phone to her cousin Sakura, she was also feverishly writing on a notepad while casting occasional glances at her electronic tablet. She glanced up as Melinda came and sat beside her.
"Anyway Sakura you'll know soon as I know." Serenity said, she hung up the phone and took the drink that Melinda offered her.
"What's this?" Melinda asked
"A diagram of where jurisdiction over the rights in the MCUR fall." Serenity said "Majority are universal across the board, the last few regulated by national law, we so need a mechanism under article twenty though."
"I see." Melinda said

Serenity let out a sigh, there didn't seem to be a strong mood over article 12, the amendment she'd put was safe, didn't infringe on other states and wasn't offensive to other cultures. So on paper at least and judging from what she knew about the nations represented article 12 stood a strong chance of being amended without losing the intent and spirit of the article. The real battle was to come and she knew it, but she felt optimistic about it after all no one had really thrown a curve ball yet, something she was grateful for. She glanced at her watch.

"Better get back inside" Serenity said she stood and looked around, much better location for it this time around, a relaxing place like this certainly beat the conference centre in Churchill in the venue stakes.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: The Young Pope on March 17, 2018, 05:22:13 PM

ES fully supports the amendment to Article 12
B. Rep. fully supports the amendment to Article 12

His holiness took the opportunity to stretch his legs and say hellos to some world leaders he didn't have the chance earlier to get to know properly, such as President Lavaud of the B. Rep; from his short but intenseful discussion, he came to respect him pretty quickly; ambitious and intelligent, one sure couldn't underestimate his ruthlessness either. In any case, both of them were pretty open for any last minute backdoor talks and the like, that was what they were there for besides showing up to sign an adjusted MCUR for international recognition and prestige,

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Beatrice on March 19, 2018, 11:53:31 PM

"The First Empire supports the Amendments to Article 12."

OOC: I swear I posted something here hours ago that apparently did not go through. That is now rectified.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Norgeras on March 20, 2018, 01:40:18 PM

"Since i believe the amendment does not go far enough, i will stay with a no." Robert declared, before walking his anger off. These people trampled with pride what was sacred to them, and that was the sovereignty of a nation. He felt especially vexed that this young grasshopper Serenity seemed to think herself the moral world police, where she simply had no right to tell other nations what to believe acceptable.

He did open his smartphone before calling his grandson: "Yes, i know how it looks. No, dealing with the fact you where kissing a noble toddler during the coronation is your own issue, make sure it does not impact your job here. You will most likely succeed me one day into the elder Senate, so don't screw this up."

Rudolph himself just walked around a corner, shaking his head slowly: "Your usual way of debating wont work with these people grandfather..." while closing his phone and ending the call: "Besides i life close by right now no need to keep this on the Phone. I am pretty sure several people believe you and Uburzis have a thing against the love between two men now. Thanks to The cultural Ambassador the court already thinks i would have to keep it a secret from you i have an interest in Mister..."

"Just make sure you treat him properly, if people think you just bed him and don't fulfill your obligation of introducing him to our society then it will negatively impact you..."

"I don't even bed him, for the divines sake!" Rudolph answered angrily, shaking his head.

"Doesn't matter, i have to get back." the old man replied, slowly making his way back inside, holding his walking cane tight.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on March 23, 2018, 09:07:47 PM

Queen Klara looked around, it was time to call the vote to a close. "It would appear then that we have a new Article 12." What was next was going to cause the biggest disputes the young Queen sensed. "We're onto Article 13. This is likely to present us many issues, for example Lodja does not recognise that it is possible to change gender as it is only the Goddess that determines gender. As the Article currently stands Lodja could not support Article 13, however we are here to discuss the future of the treaty and welcome suggestions."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Norgeras on March 27, 2018, 07:42:20 PM

"Scrap 13. and we can move forward." was all Robert had to say for now, sitting back on his chair.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on March 27, 2018, 08:12:34 PM

Serenity sighed Here we go again, she thought but a cursory glance at the treaty did offer other options and glancing around the room she knew how important it was to be careful now - Article 12 had been simple enough as there hadn't really be an appetite among enough nations to seriously threaten it but Article 13 was a whole different kettle of fish as the saying went. So it was time to think through her options...consider what Article 13 allowed, was there another way? Was there a way for everyone to get what they wanted? She looked at the treaty with the proposed amendments that Klara had made at the start of proceedings and then at what she'd wanted to get out of this That which you cannot retain in name you retain in spirit she half smiled.

"When this treaty was originally negotiated in Churchill, the debate in respect of article 13 was quite different to this one. Not once the first time around was the issue of gender and sex being two different things raised - this is most likely due to the cultural understandings of the nations negotiating the treaty at that time being that of a common understanding that sex and gender are the same thing, had there been a nation such as Lodja in the room that time I have little doubt that either article 13 would have been cut or at the very least would look very different. However it was included and has come to symbolize something to a specific group of people. So the question that we have to consider now is whether or not we can adjust article 13 to a point where it is satisfactory to everyone, in the case of sex and gender being different constructs then it's a relatively easy semantic amendment to adjust the treaty to reflect that.

But this would not cover all eventualities so if I may beg the indulgence of those gathered here I would like to request discussion on article 20 and article 16 before we make a decision on article 13."

When she'd finished speaking Serenity relaxed in her chair a little, she had a workable plan she just needed the opportunity to put it in place.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: DaveIronside on March 27, 2018, 10:34:09 PM

"If I may, the simple moving on may be pointless, I suspect that there are many around this table who view Article 13 as a red line. Now if that is so I suspect the next few hours of discussion are critical because we could well spend time discussing these articles and still find ourselves here and unless we find a compromise still see nations walking out that door" King David pointed to the doors they had all walked through. "Therefore I think tackling the more....how shall I say.....controversial topics should come first so we all know where we stand moving onto things I think we'll find easy such as courts and the like." The King looked around, "As it stands the MCUR stands as a minimum standard expected of nations. The aim of Article 13 was to ensure no discrimination to people based on them changing Gender, now if we now have nations around the table that see that as a scientific impossibility for whatever reason then we must come up with a wording that does two things. First protects the rights of those suffering from conditions such as gender dysphoria to find a suitable remedy for their needs, not excluding changing their gender, that however does not automatically mean a recognition of this new gender by the state perhaps. The second thing is to allow nations with the views such as Lodja to protect their cultural understanding of gender. As I sit here I am well aware that these proceedings will be reported on back home and wish to reassure those in East Moreland that there will be no change to the stance of our nation on this. An individual will still be permitted to undergo gender reassignment therapy and will at that point receive the full rights, protections and responsibilities of that gender regardless of what the MCUR ends up saying."

The King looked down at the wording of Article 13

Quote

Article 13 – Right to change gender

1. Everyone has the right to change their legally assigned gender and, where it is safe and reasonable to do so, undergo sex reassignment therapy.

2. A marriage in which one spouse has declared their intent to change their legally assigned gender shall still be considered valid, however a spouse must be informed of a declaration.

3. If the state is unable to provide sex reassignment therapy, a person wishing to change their biological gender shall have the freedom to travel to another state to undergo said therapy with no prejudice to their return.

"Now, perhaps I can get some feedback on this as a first step towards overcoming this issue."

Quote

Article 13 – Right to change gender

1. Everyone has the right to physically change their gender in accordance with their nations health care provision.

2. Anyone physically changing their gender may not be discriminated against because of this change.

3. If the state is unable to provide sex reassignment therapy, a person wishing to change their biological gender shall have the freedom to travel to another state to undergo said therapy with no prejudice to their return.

"I am no legal expert, so I merely float this as a way of breaking the ice on the subject, as anyone I've dealt with around this table knows I hate starting negotiations with a completely blank piece of paper, and often my scribbling are far from perfect, but now we have a place to begin from."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on March 27, 2018, 10:59:30 PM

"That works in regards to most issues, though the issue of the current, not proposed 13.2 is a remaining issue." Serenity said "This is partly why I wanted to bring the discussion on Article 20 in first because if we agreed to what that article required us to do which is sort out the enforcement and interpretation mechanism then we'd be able to refer questions such as that one to the mechanism, but we can't do that without knowing whether that mechanism is going to exist or not. In simple terms had we sorted article 20 out first we would have been able to compile a list of questions for legal experts to deal with as we went, things such as "What is a Legal Union?" as mentioned under the proposed article 12 from the Iwi and here "What is the status of a marriage where one party changes their physical gender?" It greatly increases our chances of having an easier time of it here and significantly reduces the likelihood of nations walking out of the door."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: DaveIronside on March 27, 2018, 11:29:51 PM

"May I remind people that one reason we are here was allegations of Cultural Imperialism and taking away nations sovereignty. We now have a proposal to erode that even further. A legal union is viewed differently from nation to nation, for example I know in Royal Seleucid a union is classed as legal as soon as an agreement between families has been made, where as in East Moreland no union is legal until either a civil registration or religious ceremony has taken place. If we have a body defining what a Legal Union is for EVERY member of this charter such traditions would be eroded and we stand again accused of the two issues. While I agree there should be somebody that people can refer their cases to should they feel there is an issue we can not at the same time take away the rights of nations to make laws supporting the culture and people of their nations. It is for this reason I would urge a focus on finding a way forward with Article 13 not involving faceless lawyers unversed in the cultures of every signatory member"

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on March 28, 2018, 12:03:27 AM

"If I may Your Majesty allow me to clarify my point, the definition of legal union under article 12 is subject to the national laws of each individual sovereign state so in that situation the question would have been "What is a legal union?" the answer would have to by definition include all the possibilities of such unions which is essentially the article 12.2 we just passed with a reminder that it is subject to the national laws of each state or an examination of the laws of a signatory state in this regard if asked "What is a legal Union in X?", to define an answer. It therefore does not under any circumstances define what a legal union is for every member it states what the definition can include for purposes of legal clarification or it states what the law in a specific state is, it does not have the right or authority to ride roughshod over national law, nothing can because the whole article in terms of application is subject to national law." Serenity said

"However this is still relevant to article 13 and that is article at hand so let's focus there. We have under the existing 13.2 a declaration that when it comes to a marriage where one spouse changes gender that it shall still be considered valid seemingly regardless of anything, now this already causes problems if we consider the culture of a nation such as Lodja where I believe one woman can take many husbands but not the other way round in that if a woman underwent sexual reasignment surgery then the status of those marriages would be questioned, I'm not entirely sure what the position would be though I imagine it could be classed as adultery or something similar with some penalty and consequence. Therefore the question begged for interpretation is "What is the legal status of such a marriage in that event?" naturally this should be defined by national law respecting that each culture is different.

But the issue does remain because King's David proposal removes this point without replacing it with anything of the same intent, and even though I agree with removing that point I am mindful that we have to be careful about how we do it, it's arguable that the status of the marriage in such circumstances would be covered under 12.1 and 12.3, so may I suggest that we include the following in article 13 "A party to a Legal Union who wishes to physically change their gender must inform all other parties to the Union of their decision." thus preserving the idea that the status of a marriage, where legally and culturally appropriate is determined by the parties to it, for example in Achkaerin if a woman in a same sex marriage underwent the reassignment surgery and the spouse was happy to remain married then then it would legally be a case of transferring a homosexual marriage into a heterosexual marriage. It's only fair to give notice to affected parties."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Beatrice on March 30, 2018, 12:48:24 PM

"While I applaud the efforts of King David I believe that the proposal is still a massive step back from the protections granted under the MCUR," Euphemia said. "Transitioning involves more than the physical aspect, such as sexual reassignment therapy, whereas some in the transgender population never see surgery as a necessary step. We must also account for hormone therapy while being mindful of the many spheres of life which are impacted beyond therapy, as transitioning itself is a process which often involves several years of one's life."

"Thanks to a growing body of research we know that the brain structures, indeed the functions, of a trans woman's brain more closely resemble those of a typical woman, something which is likewise noted in the brains of trans men even before the introduction of hormone therapy and regardless of sexual orientation. This, in combination with genetic factors, adds to the growing body of research exploring the biological roots of transsexualism. Thus my concerns that by focusing upon Article 13 as a mere matter of physical change does not take into account the many factors which come into play for any trans individual and allows for a door to be opened to rolling back that progress which was achieved by the MCUR."

"With one proposal before us, two if you count those who would wish to scrap Article 13 entirely, I wish to offer an alternative which recognizes the complexities which this issue truly involves."

Quote

Article 13 - Right To Gender Identity

1. Everyone shall have the right to the recognition of their gender identity, the free development of their person according to their gender identity, and where it is safe and reasonable to do so, to undergo sex reassignment therapy.

2. Everyone shall have the right to be identified by their gender identity and may not be discriminated against because of this change.

3. If the state is unable to provide sex reassignment therapy, a person wishing to change their legally assigned gender shall have the freedom to travel to another state to undergo said therapy with no prejudice to their return.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: CGJ on March 30, 2018, 05:26:44 PM

Lankly smiled at the Rokkenjiman proposal. Of course they would do that. "It's important to remember that gender identity is a very complicated matter. While I see the merit in the East Moreland proposal, i's focus upon sex reassignment therapy presents the risk of challenging the existing rights of those who have yet to do so. I would support the Rokkenjiman amendment, though 13.2 of that amendment appears to simply repeat 13.1?"

"I suggest to my counterpart from Heyra that if there are no laws governing the practice of marriage, a same-sex marriage is allowed?"

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: KrisNord on March 30, 2018, 09:12:39 PM

It was Julia Menskia, the Minister of Home Affairs, and a former member of staff at the University in Krokom. "If I may, she began, we do have growing research about brain structure, but to mask it as a male or female brain is rather simplistic and frankly more down to a social construct. There are many reasons for the differences in brains, for example, did you know the hippocampus in men is generally bigger than women, however in truck drivers it is also significantly different to that of people who do not drive at all. The hippocampus is responsible for aiding a sense of direction, therefore as a study shows they have significantly different brain structures should we permit them to be a gender? Furthermore science has found changes in brain activity varies from culture to culture. For example studies have shown that social cognitive processes are characterized by stronger activity in the dorsal medial prefrontal cortex, lateral frontal cortex and temporoparietal junction in Rokkenjimans[1] but stronger activity in the anterior cingulate, ventral medial prefrontal cortex and bilateral insula in Morelanders[2]. Social affective processes are associated with stronger activity in the right dorsal lateral frontal cortex in Rokkenjimans but greater activity in the left insula and right temporal pole in Morelanders[3] Therefore talking about brain structures being typical of a gender means there can be variation according to profession and culture. Does this mean if King David's lateral frontal cortex is more active he must be a Rokkenjiman and if he has a small hippocampus he must be a women? Can we therefore use brain structure and activity to define every characteristic of an individual. A brain structure can be changed by a whole host of issues and gender is but one of them.

"As we learn more about the human genome we spot other issues study has found that there are more than 6,500 unique genes in the human genome that express different traits depending on a person’s gender, either male or female, which explains the huge biological differences between men and women this means more than 21 percent of the entire human genome, which is composed of about 30,000 genes, code for gender-specific traits. These can only be changed with drugs or therapy. One of these genes, which is also related to calcium uptake, showed very high expression levels in younger women that sharply decreased with age; the scientists think that they are active in women up to menopause, protecting their hearts, but leading to heart disease and osteoporosis in later years when the gene expression is shut down.[4] Therefore the concept of gender as being changeable is far from settled, if 21% of our genome is gender specific then this is significant and unchangeable. It would also mean there are likely to be more than two genders, possibly tens of thousands, therefore making this even more complex as the wording of these treaty seems almost binary, either male or female. A better step forward would be gender neutral legislation, this however is unlikely to find traction in all of those gathered around the table. Could you imagine for example the issue having non binary gender legislation will cause, we could potentially have thousands of genders people claim to be and certain laws and rules exist that wouldn't recognise that, for example Article 2 of the Rokkenjiman constitution reads, (assuming Beatrice hasn't changed it) "The Imperial Throne shall be succeeded to by Imperial female descendants, according to the provisions of the Imperial House Law." What if, just for arguments sake, Crown Princess Adriana identifies as Absorgender, a group that identify themselves as a gender that conforms to those around them and changes as they socialise with more or less people. Could therefore Adriana inherit the throne? As some moments she will be male, others female? This is the pandora's box we are staring at, a realm of new science and anyone claiming any one study or a conscientious at the infancy of these types of study holds the answer is setting the world up for problems down the road. Imagine it, a restaurant needing hundreds of bathrooms as Ambonec identifying individuals demand their own bathrooms, while Gendermavircks believe they should be able to use any bathroom they wish. Should a Nullgender identifying person be able to apply for a job say cleaning a female changing room in a public swimming pool? I personally believe Article 13 should be considered for either removal or needs serious reworking as it could lead to decades of legal disputes in every single nation around this table. "

1.	East Asians
2.	Westerners
3.	https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811914004479
4.	https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12915-017-0352-z

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on April 02, 2018, 12:34:51 AM

"There's an old proverb." Serenity said "A bad compromise is better than a good lawsuit. It's fundamentally clear here that any inclusion of article thirteen is going to have to be a compromise, and that as we know is defined as something that neither party is particularly happy with. So let's start with a look at article thirteen under the existing charter it says three things first it permits people to change their legally assigned gender, which by implication recognizes the existence of and rights of the transgender community, second it makes a point regarding transpersons who are in marriages or equivalent relationships and then thirdly it mentions sex reassignment therapy specifically that where appropriate they can undergo it and if it's not available in their country of residence that they can travel abroad to a nation where it is available without prejudice.

Now let's be clear the existing 13.2 would now easily be governed under article 12.1 as it would fall under the rules governing the status of a marriage, if you think about marriage law you have laws governing the conditions of eligibility to be married, so for example the person must be single, of marriageable age, be able to give fully informed consent etc. Religious institutions may add some further conditions such as they mustn't have been divorced, the same area of law would also likely deal with the grounds of voiding a marriage or divorce law so this is where the old 13.2 would end up, which is where it probably should be.

With that reconciled we're left with dealing with a balancing act as mentioned by King David earlier between recognizing the rights of the transgender community and recognizing the cultural beliefs of nations. Now yes Princess Euphemia and Mr Lankly have a point the trans issue is a complicated one and goes beyond simply being about a surgical operation, I'm sure this is a point of view that can be respected by everyone here even if it is a view that people do not agree with. However it should also be noted that not every nation here recognizes that it is possible to change gender, Lodjan culture as explained by Her Majesty states that gender is determined by their Goddess and their Goddess alone, again even if we disagree with that it is something that needs to be respected. Otherwise we're getting back into the realms of cultural imperialism and that isn't somewhere we should be seeking to go."

Serenity paused for a few seconds, taking a sip of her drink, while she weighed up her options.

"It appears that with the exception of the suggestion to scrap article 13 there's a broad consensus that the sex reassignment therapy be included in any proposed article 13, the statement regarding discrimination is also something I think can be safely included as it goes to the very heart of the article. Which leaves the key issue that we're all looking at that of 'changing gender' I suggest then that we do with article 13 similar to what was done with article 12 and make it something along the lines of.

Quote

Article 13 – Right to Gender Identity

1. Everyone has the right to the recognition of their gender identity, the free development of their person according to their gender identity, subject to national law.

2. A person has the right to be identified by their gender identity (subject to 13.1) and may not be discriminated against because of any change.

3. A person has the right to change their gender in accordance with their nations health care provisions and when permitted to do so by national law.

4. If the state is unable to provide sex reassignment therapy, a person wishing to change their biological gender shall have the freedom to travel to another state to undergo said therapy with no prejudice to their return.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: CGJ on April 02, 2018, 04:33:34 PM

"With respect to the Achkarinese position, we do have to remember that we appear to be conceding on religious grounds. The only legal issue appears to be that of marriage in Lodja, and therefore we suggest a less-amended version. There isn't any real compromise for nations that do not recognise the possibility of changing gender, so we either have a redundant Article 13 that allows for violation of Article 13, or we have an Article 13."

Quote

Article 13 – Right to change gender

1. Any person has the right to change their legally assigned gender and be identified by their gender identity, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.

2. Any person also has the right, where it is safe and reasonable to do so, to undergo sex reassignment therapy.

2. If the state is unable to provide sex reassignment therapy, a person wishing to change their biological sex shall have the freedom to travel to another state to undergo said therapy with no prejudice to their return.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: KrisNord on April 02, 2018, 05:53:38 PM

Julia Menskia shook her head and stood again, "If I may, it would appear many of you have either opted to ignore what was said regarding the science of this issue or fail to grasp what was said. If I may therefore draw an hypothetical example using the Dartfordian suggestion. The first sub article states. "Any person has the right to change their legally assigned gender and be identified by their gender identity, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right." This creates no issue assuming gender is binary, however as our friends from Rokkenjima seem to wish to use brain science as a basis for this may I remind people of the differences between brains I illustrated, and further more gene studies highlight differences, the problem is they don't show a binary, they don't show black and white, male or female. They show possibly thousands of different patterns. Now imagine a situation where an individual does not wish to identify as male or female, they wish to identify as Astralgender, apparently a gender identity connected to space[1]. Under your proposal we need to recognise them as such. Perhaps you could tell me which bathroom they use? Or would for example they be allowed to work in a female changing facility at a swimming baths? Potentially there would be the need for every nation to change every single one of their laws regarding gender to accomodate people being able to identify and select their own gender. Now if what my friend from Dartfordia means is that they should be allowed to pick whether they are male or female and thus have the rights attributed to that group is that not now denying the rights of those who do not comply by your cultural expectations of binary gender? I suspect the get out of jail free card so to speak will be the mention of the "according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right." but that still permits people to deny the right to change gender by introducing laws which would not permit such actions, so for example what would be to stop Lodja saying "Yes you can be whatever gender you wish so long as you can pass a DNA test to prove it?" They are not denying a change of gender, just asking people to comply with national laws."

"The arguments I am making do not come from a religious point of view, in fact Odinism has a care not attitude to this issue, the arguement I am making is on two fronts, first if we pass this in the suggested Dartfordian format we create decades if not longer of expensive legal issues for ourselves as any individual can claim to belong to a gender of their own design and demand legal recognition for it, or alternatively and this is my second issue, we limit these switches of gender to male and female and therefore you deny people the right to identify as their preferred gender or in some cases limit cultural identities."

1.	https://www.wattpad.com/341462536-complete-list-of-genders-the-complete-list-of-all/page/2

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Beatrice on April 02, 2018, 09:59:33 PM

"To address the points raised let us return the focus to those brain structures which are relevant; two sexually dimorphic areas of the brain are often times compared between men an women. We can observe that the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis and sexually dimorphic nucleus of transgender women are more similar to those of cisgender women than those of cisgender men, which suggests that the general brain structure of these women is in keeping with their gender identity. Furthermore, one classic way in which we've seen traits which are influenced by genetics is twin studies. Identical twins have the exact genetic background and, usually, are raised in the same environment while fraternal, or non-identical twins, share only half of their genes, but tend to also be raised in the same environment."

"If identical twins tend to share a trait more than fraternal twins we may infer that trait has a probability of being influenced by genetics. We have seen in several studies that identical twins are more often both transgender than fraternal twins, something which indicates that there is a genetic influence for this identity. Returning to the bed nucleus of the strai terminalis (BSTc) we find that it is twice as large, and densely populated with cells, in men as compared to women. As a sexal dimorphism it's fairly robust and while scientists do not yet know why it exists it stands as a good marker of a male versus female brain. The two teams discovered over the course of their studies that male-to-female transgender women had a BSTc more closely resembling that of a cisgender woman than men in both size and cell density, while female-to-male transgender men had BSTcs resembilng cisgender men."

"These are differences which remained after scientists took into account hormone therapy during their transition by including cisgender men and women who were also on the same hormones which did not correspond to their biological sex for medical reasons. Such studies have since been confirmed and corroborated in other studies and other regions of the brain known as the sexually dimorphic nucleus which is believed to affect sexual behaviour in animals. As we know, hormone treatment can have vast impacts on the structure and composition of the brain, so studying the brains of transgender men and women who had not yet undertaken hormone treatment yields further clues. In further studies we've seen confirmed previous findings, showing yet again that transgender people appear to be born with brains which are more similar to the gender with which they identify, as opposed to the one which they were assigned. This is before we consider a study which found that trans women possess a longer androgen receptor gene than cisgender men, which is less effective at binding testosterone and potentially preventing the complete masculinization of the brain."

"If we can show such links in regards to Astralgenders, Absorgenders, and Gendermavircks I would be happy to revisit their position at the international level, however, these questions would, at this time, be best be answered at the national level as our Dartfordian colleagues have suggested."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Norgeras on April 02, 2018, 10:28:14 PM

"Did you even listen to her?" Robert raised an eyebrow as he tilted his head: "Her point was that if you go by Brain structure, you'd have to admit hundreds, if not thousands of Genders right away."

Looking into the room, he shook his head slowly: "Also as Lady Menskia said, we simply are not able to summon away our genetics and their results. Even hormone therapy is just a superficial change. In the end no matter how close this plastic surgeons get, it stays a pretense, and we have changed nothing. Also the truth is, that Brain structure in general has shown to be ill conceived when it comes to behavior. Every attempt to isolate violent and psychotic behavior to observable brain structures has resulted in failure so far, yet you claim to be capable to know if they should use the Rattan- oder Rattlesnake gender Bathroom by taking a peek into their Brain?"
Robert shook his head: "Don't get me wrong, we wouldn't cast someone out, or deny them healthcare. But we will not let ourselves be forced to change legal documents on the whim, not to mention this whole issue is not a basic right. You can't come around and tell me an expensive year long treatment to mutilate your own body and destroy parts of it's functionality is anything close to a basic right. This treaty should be around the basics, that everyone can agree on. That everyone can sign, not about one Nation trying to be overly pseudo progressive."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: KrisNord on April 02, 2018, 11:33:56 PM

Menskia stood again, "I shall make this as simple as possible for those not speaking science. Your references refer to studies that contain data on twins who were raised in similar ways and settings. To confirm based on studies of twins that there is a genetic male and female brain you require two things, first twins who have not been raised together to both suffer gender identity disorder, the second is for these studies to be repeated among a wide range of cultures. Ideally what would be needed to prove this is fraternal twins with one being raised in Arda Tuluva and one being raised in Heyra and both having similar brain structure, but we know this will not happen. The reason for that is simple, brains develop differently because of their activities and surroundings. Now the issue of brain analysis as a basis of gender is this, the studies show there is no identical structure, so everyones gender could therefore be seen as individual, how do you legislate for that? We have here a piece of legislation where people such as Rokkenjima are claiming they wish to not see "transgender" people's rights eroded, yet in their presentation of evidence are assuming a binary when no such global binary exists. Parts of the brain develop the way they do because of two factors nature and nurture. The nature part of the brain can be developed by nurture and drugs, as society therefore only recognises two genders we categorise brain activity into these two genders. As I explained about the hippocampus, traditionally this is larger in men, reasons suspected for that are it is responsible for sense of direction, route planning and the like, successful male breeders tended to be the best hunter gatherer and so therefore their excessive practice using this part of their brain enlarged it, in much the same way curls in the gym develop biceps. This brain activity however can be learnt and differences seen, for example female taxi drivers their hippocampus is larger than the typical females[1] As such her brain will not follow typical female brain patterns so therefore not conforming to her gender identity. Now we can go around in circles all day on the science behind this, and this brings me to my main argument, there is no clear consensus on the cause of GID or the number of genders in existence. What studies we have our culturally specific, and in cases of twin studies in such a lower number and methodologically weak that we will not have a scientific consensus in the next decade.

Here we are trying to create a treaty that has to be future proof but the problem is we have no idea in what direction the future is heading. Yes people who suffer from GID should be protected. Should someone be able to simply state a gender they identify with and recieve the rights, privileges and responsibilities associated with that gender then I would say no. The ideal solution to this would be to create a genderless society, but that will not happen. All the suggestions on the table at present do not protect everyone's rights based on gender identity as not all believe gender is binary, I know for example the Iwi[2] culturally recognise a third neutral gender, imagine if you will if one of this group moves to say Ui Cenneslaig where they recognise legally only two genders. Suddenly this Maori loses their rights to be recognised as their prefered gender, meaning Ui Cenneslaig could end up being taken to whatever court mechanism we create here and thus faced with having their national laws changed by an outside body despite allowing gender reassignment. I bring up science because we had a "Growing body of science" mentioned, this growing body is certainly in existence but each new discovery throws up more questions than answers and for each study our Rokkenjiman delegate can find claiming proof of male and female gender identity indicators I can find as many showing that there are either more, or that they are socially influenced.

The focus of this article must be based therefore on this question, What can be done so those that do not conform to their birth gender do not face prejudice, while at the same time not creating a legal swamp that will cost every nation around this room their sovereignty, thousands of hours of court time and potentially billions of dollars? My issues with the Dartfordian suggestion are as follows"

Quote

Article 13 – Right to change gender

1. Any person has the right to change their legally assigned gender and be identified by their gender identity, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right. Anyone seeing themselves as a gender not specified by their nations law will have to go to court or force the nation to recognise anyone of potentially hundreds of genders this brings about its own set of issues i.e schools, bathrooms, employment law. The second part stating national law means it is possible to deny gender identity changes by such things as, "You may change your gender freely by presenting chromosome evidence of your change."

2. Any person also has the right, where it is safe and reasonable to do so, to undergo sex reassignment therapy. I have no issue with this section except adding a safeguard so nations do not have to offer this as part of their health care package, so perhaps adding at the end "in accordance with their nations health care provision"

3. If the state is unable to provide sex reassignment therapy, a person wishing to change their biological sex shall have the freedom to travel to another state to undergo said therapy with no prejudice to their return. No issue here

"If I may suggest an alternative to number one."

1. No person may be discriminated against on grounds of gender identity. National laws must, except where gender is a determining factor, make no mention of gender.
[3],

1.	London taxi drivers and bus drivers: a structural MRI and neuropsychological analysis. Maguire EA1, Woollett K, Spiers HJ.
2.	Kris has explained to me in the pub about Maori views on gender, if this is wrong or the Iwi don't have it I'll edit this bit out
3.	Someone with better English can probably explain this in better terms, but what I mean is for example jobs such as High Priestess of the Cult of Helus must be a woman, or you couldn't be a man who is responsible for cleaning a female changing room during opening hours. Hope that makes sense.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on April 02, 2018, 11:58:48 PM

"Generally speaking it's far easier to ask a rattlesnake gender person as you put it which bathroom they should use because they will have an opinion on it and asking the question of 'what gender do you identify as?' in a society where no one should be discriminated against based on gender than it is to uncover a neurological reason why a murderer kills as there are a variety of reasons for why that happens." Serenity said "Now returning to the issue our friend from Nya Aland, Ms Menskia, has made several significant points and considering the latest suggestion she has made which I believe looks like this

Quote

1. No person may be discriminated against on grounds of gender identity. National laws must, except where gender is a determining factor, make no mention of gender.

2. Any person also has the right, where it is safe, reasonable and in accordance with their nation healthcare provision to do so, undergo sex reassignment therapy.

3. If the state is unable to provide sex reassignment therapy, a person wishing to change their biological sex shall have the freedom to travel to another state to undergo said therapy with no prejudice to their return.

"This is acceptable, doesn't infringe on sovereignty and does retain the principles of article 13 as it exists. The adjustment to 13.1 is common sense and is certainly a compromise in legislative means that I can live with and probably that the Senate can live with. I support it and I suggest we vote on this amendment."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: DaveIronside on April 03, 2018, 01:36:48 AM

"The concept of gender neutral legislation is one that we have kicked around in East Moreland for a while but never took time to implement, for example our rules for joining the military still use the term "men and women" implying two genders, and while I suspect most Morelanders will still see it that way I have no issue rewording such laws as "citizens" or "people" whatever is appropriate. I believe this wording clearly protects people of whichever gender they wish to identify as going therefore beyond what we have already. Therefore East Moreland supports this and would be in a position to cast our vote if required."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on April 04, 2018, 11:58:52 AM

Klara thought about the Alander amendment, it would still create issues for Lodja, for example the fact that marriage laws where different for men and women. "In regards for Article 1 we would be unable to change our laws to be gender neutral, for example a woman may have multiple marriages, a man only one, if this is protected under the Article 12 parts on marriage being according to national law we could have a clash here." I feel this is far better than the original wording and would appear to extend protection against discrimination, something I think is fine, I would however welcome suggestions about how Lodja could ensure our marriage laws are not impacted by this before I support it."

OOC - I'll give until Friday 10pm for people to voice concerns, suggestions etc, should none come I'll assume everyone is happy to vote on the Alander version of the Article.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on April 04, 2018, 01:52:24 PM

"Your Majesty forgive me for being blunt here but I don't think you have a clash and I don't believe this proposed article 13 would impact your marriage laws whatsoever." Serenity said "Under article 12 which we've voted through the laws on marriage are governed at national level, so in Lodja that as you have stated is that a woman may have multiple spouses and a man only one. Now I'm not well versed in Lodjan law but if that's the sum total of it then I would argue that in Lodja the laws regarding marriage have, to use the phrasing of the proposed article 13 'gender as a determining factor' therefore meaning as I understand it that such laws would not have to be gender neutral, therefore there would be no impact on Lodja's marriage laws at all.

It's much the same thing as the laws that govern certain religions for example the laws hold that the Cult of Namis, Cult of Helus and Rosarity are to be led by women whereas in the Catholic Church the law is that the Pope must be male. Gender as a determining factor."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: CGJ on April 04, 2018, 06:08:26 PM

"I don't think the inclusion of the mentioning of gender in law adds any protection to anybody, and just adds an extra layer of confusion to make it seem like we're doing something, but when in all actuality we protect nothing. We cannot accept anything short of protecting the universal right - and as it stands, it is a universal right - to change gender. We therefore propose this amendment, which is based upon the Achkaerinese proposal, and leaves it to national law to determine, for example, how many genders a state recognises, what steps need to be followed to have their gender legally recognised, et cetera."

Quote

1. 'No person may be discriminated against on grounds of gender identity, and may, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right, change their legally assigned gender.'

2. Any person also has the right, where it is safe, reasonable and in accordance with their nation healthcare provision to do so, undergo sex reassignment therapy.

3. If the state is unable to provide sex reassignment therapy, or where it does not fall within their national healthcare provision, a person wishing to change their biological sex shall have the freedom to travel to another state to undergo said therapy with no prejudice to their return.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on April 04, 2018, 08:27:05 PM

Serenity felt like banging her head against the table...again. For the second article they'd had the whole thing at a point where something that was apparently acceptable was on the table, that did precisely was required and then someone thought of something.

"With all due respect to Mr Lankly perhaps he needs to take a good hard look at what he has just proposed" Serenity said "It states rightly that no one may be discriminated against because of their gender identity, this is something I'm sure we all agree with, but it then makes the right to change gender subject to national law. This permits under national law the government of the day to discriminate against people on the ground of their gender. And that's coupled with taking the issue completely out of the jurisdiction of any court we agree to form under article 20. It is a contradictory article. The Nya Aland amendment is far superior and does include within it's scope the right to change gender because surely it is possible to argue that No one may be discriminated against on grounds of gender identity includes circumstances where someone identifies as one gender one week and a different gender the next.

Remember everyone is identified for the purposes of record at birth as either male or female, that's biology determined by genatalia so we then infer male or female gender, that isn't going to change, any change of gender identity comes later on as the baby grows up and they begin to explore their gender identity."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: CGJ on April 04, 2018, 09:13:33 PM

Lankly paused for a moment, then replied. "In that instance, we suggest only removing the part about national laws making no mention of gender, and adding to 13.3 the right to go abroad for SRT and return not only if the state is unable to provide it, but also if it is not within their national healthcare provision:"

Quote

1. No person may be discriminated against on grounds of their gender identity and to be treated equally under the law.

2. Any person also has the right, where it is safe, reasonable and in accordance with their nation healthcare provision to do so, undergo sex reassignment therapy.

3. If the state is unable to provide sex reassignment therapy, or where it does not fall within their national healthcare provision, a person wishing to change their biological sex shall have the freedom to travel to another state to undergo said therapy with no prejudice to their return.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on April 04, 2018, 09:30:17 PM

"But again that doesn't work." Serenity said "Your 13.1 would now ride roughshod over the cultural issues of Lodja when it comes to how their marriage laws work, you would create a scenario where a man could demand under this article the right to take multiple wives, something not permitted under Lodjan law, but because the MCUR would say otherwise you create a lawsuit. The 13.1 proposed by Nya Aland deals with this issue in an acceptable way. Now I'm prepared to accept the Dartfordian amendment to 13.3 but I do think we need to take the Alander 13.1 as that sub article:

Quote

1. No person may be discriminated against on grounds of gender identity. National laws must, except where gender is a determining factor, make no mention of gender

2. Any person also has the right, where it is safe, reasonable and in accordance with their nation healthcare provision to do so, undergo sex reassignment therapy.

3. If the state is unable to provide sex reassignment therapy, or where it does not fall within their national healthcare provision, a person wishing to change their biological sex shall have the freedom to travel to another state to undergo said therapy with no prejudice to their return.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Norgeras on April 04, 2018, 10:52:18 PM

"Again" Robert said, more than mildly annoyed at this point: "We are arguing and pretending something to be a basic right where scientists aren't even on the same page. Let this be handled by national laws and scrap this from a bill about basic rights that really everyone can agree on. All i see here is people trying to police other states where they have no place to do so. This isn't about arresting people for no cause, torturing, burning villages down, selling children for money. This is about some humans inability to deal with how they look, about a psychological issue blown out of proportions. This is not a basic human right. Maybe we help them with laws, maybe we don't. But it has no place in a bill about basic human rights, unless your goal leans more to force your opinion down others throat than to provide a common ground really everyone can agree with."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: CGJ on April 04, 2018, 11:37:41 PM

"The focus," Lankly said, "is to do what's right, while balancing national laws with the rights of individuals.But as for latest edition of Article 13, we're willing to yield, though I must admit I find it slightly amusing that gender equality is something that is under contention. We do not believe the sentence 'National laws must, except where gender is a determining factor, make no mention of gender' adds anything of value to the treaty, however, and our preference is that it is removed. It does not add any protections or guarantee any freedoms or rights."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on April 05, 2018, 01:37:22 AM

Serenity looked at Klara

"Your Majesty we're going round in circles may I suggest a short recess for us to re-evaluate our positions?" Serenity asked, there needed to be movement on this, there needed to be a compromise and it wasn't happening, it was time to create the opportunity to crack some heads together then.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on April 06, 2018, 10:05:35 PM

With the recess granted, Serenity went outside, if she was honest she would have liked nothing more than to have thrown both Euphemia and Lankly into the fountain, after all what part of 'read the room' was so difficult to grasp, fair enough there were always going to be people who wanted to remove articles but it had been right in front of them and then Lankly had had to get involved. It was no good taking the view of 'preserve 13 at all costs' or 'remove 13 at all costs' such extremes were only going to lead to one thing and that was a fracturing of the summit. So what was the way forwards? A compromise was a given, but they couldn't turn the whole thing over to nations without opening the back door to discrimination, the circular nature of the argument was also something that needed to change or again the potential of a fractured summit would raise its head. What to do? To avoid the argument...change the context. To protect the rights of the people that needed protecting.... be smart. To preserve article thirteen...destroy article thirteen, but wasn't that counter intuitive? Probably but at this point anything was worth a shot.

If they broadened the article out a little made it about more than one specific point and were smart about it then maybe there was a way for everyone to get what they wanted out of this. Though knowing her luck she'd present the idea and someone would accuse her of a backtrack, she looked at her copy of the draft and started scribbling on it and drawing arrows it was a bit of lateral thinking but maybe this could work. She returned inside with a bit of a smile and took her seat again. Making sure to place a note at Klara's place that she had a proposal to voice once the recess was over.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: DaveIronside on April 10, 2018, 09:10:17 AM

King David was concerned, it looked like they had reached an impasse and entrenched positions were likely to derail the process. The Morelander monarch took the opportunity to stretch his legs while thinking through the situation, as it stood only around 5 nations actually followed the treaty, they had many more non signatory nations here, a chance to extend universal rights to hundreds of millions more people who presently had no protection save that granted by their own nation, and the king knew for some that meant little protection. Surely it was possible to get a deal, he thought about it from his faiths point of view, surely they could get some protection for people who couldn't protect themselves. Some talked about watering things down, that wasn't an issue for East Moreland as the MCUR acted as a minimum standard, in truth those in his kingdom enjoyed much greater protection, that was something he was proud of. This opportunity was slipping through the group's fingers and as he made his way back to the room he hoped it wasn't one they'd miss.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on April 17, 2018, 10:02:28 AM

Klara had spent much of the break racking her brain over trying to find a way forward and with that in mind she returned to the room ready to begin again.

"As I see it we have four points of view in play on this article. If I may summarise them.

1. That this charter is an affront to a nations national sovereighty.

2. That recognising gender change is not going to happen.

3. The maintainance of the current situation.

4. A belief that the current situation does not go far enough.

Clearly those who believe in the first of these are unlikely to accept this charter at all however their concern must be noted. We have already got a treaty that in several places imposes a liberal world view upon nations in order for them to be seen as just. Take our own nation for example, we have little issue with discrimination in terms of gender, sexuality, race , religion etc, yet we can not conform with this treaty without significant change to our nation, change to a system that works for us. The marriage section, thankfully now rectified as far as we're concerned, would have made Queen Viktoria's marriage illegal. As it stands at present for example a school curriculum must " promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the maintenance of peace", this is a noble point but it imposes an expectation on a nations curriculum. We stand at present with the hurdle of overcoming this and any suggestions are welcome.

As for those who belong to the other three camps we have a giant hurdle. The MCUR was written with nations sharing a common liberal view of the concept of Gender. As has been shown here today we have Nya Aland with a much more liberal interpretation of gender than most around this table yet have been willing to seek a compromise, one that would have protected millions currently given no protection by this charter. This is the aim that we must keep in mind, presently there are 10 nations which have signed the MCUR representing around 650 million people, at present there are a similar number around this table representing around 1 billion people who currently do not have access to the MCUR. We have an opportunity if compromise can be reached to extend the MCUR to mean 1.7billion people on Mundus are protected. I would therefore urge those so far unwilling to move their point of view, from either point 2,3 or 4 to do so. I firmly believe the best way forward is to revisit the Alander suggestion. However I once more open the floor to suggestions."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on April 17, 2018, 09:35:03 PM

"I have said it before and I will say it again." Serenity said "This article is going to have to be a compromise, the Nya Aland proposal is one such compromise and I support it. The simple truth is that entrenched positions that take the view of 'thirteen as it stands or no deal' and 'no thirteen or no deal' do absolutely nothing to help us get any further forwards here. Now nobody has stated that they have any problems with the Aland proposal with the exception that is of the Neu Uburzis representative which appears to fall within a position that Her Majesty Queen Klara has just encouraged movement from, the way I see it we have to either pass the Nya Aland amendment or we have to find another way of ensuring the community in question is protected, if we can't do this then I sincerely hope we all have soundproof walls built into our embassies.

Now let's be absolutely clear this is the amendment as it stood before our recess:" she tapped the piece of paper that sat on the table

Quote

1. No person may be discriminated against on grounds of gender identity. National laws must, except where gender is a determining factor, make no mention of gender.

2. Any person also has the right, where it is safe, reasonable and in accordance with their nation healthcare provision to do so, undergo sex reassignment therapy.

3. If the state is unable to provide sex reassignment therapy, or where it does not fall within their national healthcare provision, a person wishing to change their biological sex shall have the freedom to travel to another state to undergo said therapy with no prejudice to their return.

"The proposed 13.1 is a simple declaration in the first sentence that no one must be discriminated against on the basis of gender identity, that is something everyone here can surely agree with. The second half of that article is a point that avoids every nation here ending up being hauled through the courts, now this is a simple choice of gender neutral legislation and there are multiple ways of applying it and no one here has to date specifically stated their absolute opposition to this point, the Dartfordian delegation has given their agreement to it despite initial resistance.

The proposed 13.2 gives a person the right to undergo sex reassignment therapy, this should have no opposition whatsoever in practical terms because the article makes it clear that there is no penalty against states that do not include the therapy in their national healthcare provision.

Finally the proposed 13.3 simply completes the point of 13.2 by allowing a transgender person, under circumstances where the state does not or cannot provide the reassignment therapy, to travel abroad to a state where it is offered and to undergo the therapy there, this does not place any financial burden on the state not providing the therapy, nor does it place any responsibility on that state except the guarantee of no prejudice on return which is a reaffirmation of the first point made in 13.1.

I submit therefore that this is a viable option for article 13 and am prepared to vote on it."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: KrisNord on April 22, 2018, 08:43:12 PM

"Nya Åland is not a signatory nation of the MCUR, and if this was the way that the original creation of this organisation went then I'm amazed we ever got a document. We've a proposal on the table here that would solve this issue, yet for some reason nations will not shift their stances to reach a compromise. Whatever the benchmark the MCUR reaches I can tell you know the Nya Åland constitution already goes way beyond it on this issue. Our constitution is genderless, and we recognise the whole gambit of gender identities, we also understand that a nation must be run for the benefit of those who make up its citizens and us imposing this on others would be wrong. We added the second half of our Clause 1 simply to appease the liberals here, I would urge those people to now make a gesture to move this forward, otherwise I have no choice but to remove ourselves from considering even joining this treaty." Jin Odinsson, the Head of the Nya Åland government said urging people to push forward.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Norgeras on April 22, 2018, 09:45:21 PM

Robert rolled his eyes, shaking his head:

"I think i made my stance clear. I do see an agreement for basic rights a good ideal, but i cannot in good faith agree to have our nation sign a paper where 13 remains. No matter how you try and turn and dance around it, in my opinion, it simply oversteps the reach of a universal right by far. These aren't issues to be handle on international level. I still say completely remove it, which remains my final stance."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on April 24, 2018, 09:46:59 AM

"It would seem" Queen Klara began, that we have two proposals on the table at present and with no one commenting further on the Alanders proposal[1] I propose that we vote upon which direction to travel. I therefore ask you all to make your decisions known. Our choices are, accept the Alander proposal or remove Article 13 completely."

1.	Come on folks its been a week and frankly this thing is on a knife edge of dying

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: CGJ on April 24, 2018, 09:50:52 AM

"Dartfordia supports the Nya Aland amendment."

OOC: Assuming this is the amendment quoted by Achkaerin on 17 April.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Major Jaws on April 24, 2018, 09:52:21 AM

"Quintelia fully supports the Alander amendment."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on April 24, 2018, 09:59:51 AM

Quote from: CGJ on April 24, 2018, 09:50:52 AM

"Dartfordia supports the Nya Aland amendment."

OOC: Assuming this is the amendment quoted by Achkaerin on 17 April.

That is correct

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: The Young Pope on April 24, 2018, 10:23:10 AM

"ES fully supports the Alander amendment."
"Bretonnia fully supports the Alander amendment."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on April 24, 2018, 11:41:59 AM

“Achkaerin supports the Alander amendment”

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Glitchy on April 24, 2018, 05:34:20 PM

Darren Wiliams (https://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/styles/nodeimage/public/blogs_2017/12/gettyimages-480832151.jpg?itok=hn1sWndl) sat through the meeting mostly silent, the ever-ageing 61-year-old Suvvo's feelings represented the sentiment of his nation, that the meeting was nothing but useless bureaucracy and all around absolute nonsense. It annoyed him more when the idea of gender reassignment therapy was brought on to the table for a human rights discussion, seriously a topic that should be left to the states to decide. The old man stood up, rickety in his stance, and made Sutherland's position clear.

"Sutherland opposes the Alander amendment and supports the removal of Article 13."

Darren sat back down, blabbering to himself about how rubbish this all was in typical Suvvo fashion. He appreciated Neu Uburzis' stance against and he took note of it.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Beatrice on April 24, 2018, 07:48:14 PM

"The First Empire adds its endorsement to the Ålander amendment as the best path forward."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on April 27, 2018, 11:31:35 PM

"With a majority[1] the Alander proposition becomes Article 13." Klara said expecting some murmours of disruption on the decision. It was however important to keep things moving. "As I said at the beginning of the days discussions after dealing with 12 & 13 we would move on the Article 7 to address concerns of Arda Tuluva. This currently reads as follows

Quote from: Article 7

Article 7 – Right to a fair trial and no punishment without law

1. In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.

2. Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.

3. No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national or international law at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the criminal offence was committed.

4. This Article shall not prejudice the trial and punishment of any person for any act or omission which, at the time when it was committed, was criminal according to the general principles of law recognised by civilised nations.

5. Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.

"I welcome any suggestions as to a way forward"

"I also welcome suggestions for further amendments, however please refrain from getting debates started on them until we clear Article 7."

Spoiler: The Mundus Convention on Universal Rights • show

1.	5-2 in favour

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Norgeras on April 27, 2018, 11:39:34 PM

Robert nodded slowly, picked up his cane, and respectfully bowed to Queen Klara:

"With due respect, i am no longer needed here then. Thank you for the Invitation, the result might not be something we can agree with, but sometimes it's the attempt that matters." before he slowly hobbled out of the room on his cane, leaving one chair empty on the table.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on April 28, 2018, 12:07:22 AM

"If memory serves the conversation earlier in our discussions in relation to this as put forward by our friend from Arda Tuluva is that in Arda Tuluva's justice system the accused is neither guilty or innocent but rather regarded as those who are between and that they wish the charter to reflect that. However applying such a translation to a different legal system such as that in Achkaerin becomes difficult because the presumption of innocence which is currently enshrined in article 7.2 places the burden of proof at trial squarely on the shoulders of the prosecution." Serenity said "Taking into account Arda Tuluva's system means that the burden of proof is placed evenly between the two sides, this would create several legal issues for legal systems at national level that employ the presumption of innocence, firstly and most obviously it creates a ground of appeal for criminal convictions on the basis of human rights, second it essentially obligates the defence to prove their case at trial which means putting the defendant on the stand which opens them up to cross examination and all but eliminates the defence of reasonable doubt. However I accept that we should try to accommodate the Arda Tuluvan point but I would propose to do so in a way that doesn't threaten the existing legal principles in other nations so I would propose the following:

Quote

Article 7 – Right to a fair trial and no punishment without law

1. In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.

2. No one charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed guilty until proven as such according to law.

3. No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national or international law at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the criminal offence was committed.

4. This Article shall not prejudice the trial and punishment of any person for any act or omission which, at the time when it was committed, was criminal according to the general principles of law recognised by civilised nations.

5. Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.

"This I believe would satisfy the Arda Tuluvan point while also allowing those nations that use innocent until proven guilty to retain that under a broader interpretation."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on May 07, 2018, 12:40:37 AM

OOC- I PM'd AT but had no reply, that being the case I'm assuming Achkaerin has explained the issue.

"Very well do we have anyone wishing to oppose this?" Klara asked looking around the room and hoping this would be a much easier article than the others.

OCC - I'll leave until Tuesday at 10pm .....PM me what other talking points you wish to have

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on May 11, 2018, 09:36:45 AM

"With no opposition to the proposed article I therefore call to vote the following amendment of the MCUR.

That we change this text

Quote

Article 7 – Right to a fair trial and no punishment without law

1. In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.

2. Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.

3. No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national or international law at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the criminal offence was committed.

4. This Article shall not prejudice the trial and punishment of any person for any act or omission which, at the time when it was committed, was criminal according to the general principles of law recognised by civilised nations.

5. Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.

To this

Quote

Article 7 – Right to a fair trial and no punishment without law

1. In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.

2. No one charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed guilty until proven as such according to law.

3. No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national or international law at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the criminal offence was committed.

4. This Article shall not prejudice the trial and punishment of any person for any act or omission which, at the time when it was committed, was criminal according to the general principles of law recognised by civilised nations.

5. Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.

"Please make your opinion known."

OOC - Plan to let this run until Monday 10pm UK time. Also if you have any amendments, additions etc please let me know.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on May 12, 2018, 09:35:21 PM

Achkaerin supports the amendment.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on May 15, 2018, 10:58:27 AM

"It would seem then that the new article 7 has been accepted." Klara said, they were nearing the end of what people had raised and so she turned to her own notes.

"Now it appears to me we have some glaring absences of rights. We therefore wish to see the following" She handed round a piece of paper.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

(2)) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.

(3) Children have the right to receive nurturing support and care, whenever possible as part of their natural family. It shall be the responsibility of parents to ensure children in their care access reasonable health and educational facilities.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Beatrice on May 15, 2018, 08:15:45 PM

"In light of the amended Article 13 which calls on national laws to make no mention of gender, except for matters where gender is a determining factor, I would recommend that the MCUR itself adopt gender-neutral language. Thus, and my apologies for revisiting it in such short order, we believe Article 7 should instead be presented as such:"

Quote

Article 7 – Right to a fair trial and no punishment without law

1. In the determination of their civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against them, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.

2. Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.

3. No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national or international law at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the criminal offence was committed.

4. This Article shall not prejudice the trial and punishment of any person for any act or omission which, at the time when it was committed, was criminal according to the general principles of law recognised by civilised nations.

5. Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which they understand and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against them;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of their defence;
(c) to defend themselves in person or through legal assistance of their own choosing or, if they have not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against them and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on their behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against them;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if they cannot understand or speak the language used in court.

"And the noted absences addressed as such:"

Quote

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of their nationality nor denied the right to change their nationality.

(2)) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of their personality is possible.

(3) Children have the right to receive nurturing support and care, whenever possible as part of their natural family. It shall be the responsibility of parents to ensure children in their care access reasonable health and educational facilities.

"With those issues addressed the First Empire has no objections, though if it would please our hosts the First Empire believes that another right has been absent from both the MCUR and international attention. This is a matter which we would like to address before the end of the summit, at your discretion."

Receiving acknowledgement Euphemia continued. "The First Empire has long vied for broader recognition of perhaps the most basic, essential right, one without which we cannot live: clean and safe water. The right to water is perhaps an indispensable right, however, there are many threats which exist to peoples and communities in having reliable access to safe and clean water.

Quote

1. All persons have the right to safe and clean drinking water and sanitation, as these are essential to the realisation and enjoyment of all human rights.

2. Signatories shall work with international organisations to provide financial resources, capacity-building and technology transfer, through international assistance and cooperation, in particular to developing countries, in order to scale up efforts to provide clean, accessible and affordable drinking water and sanitation for all.

3. Signatories shall take all proper measures to ensure that commercial activities and projects do not erode the access of a community to clean, accessible and affordable drinking water and sanitation.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on May 15, 2018, 08:43:29 PM

"Clearly the administration staff here need to pay more attention" Klara adressed the first issue brought up by the Rokkenjimans. "We also broadly speaking support their amendment, however one of our initial concerns was how this treaty in its current form takes away the sovereignty of nations to make decisions on their own development. My concern is section 2 of your proposal is another example of that. In the format you suggest the article compels nations to work with international organisations in order to improve things in a nation that is not their own, if passed it would essentially force nations into having a foreign aid budget and forcing them to spend a portion of it here. Therefore I propose that section 2 be removed."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Beatrice on May 15, 2018, 09:08:54 PM

"Let us step back from placing financial obligations within the amendment and focus section 2 on methods which can help achieve the objective at the capability of the signatory nations.

Quote

2. Signatories may, as their capability merits, work towards capacity-building and technology transfer, through international assistance and cooperation, in particular to developing countries, in order to scale up efforts to provide clean, accessible and affordable drinking water for all.

"Further financial initiatives can thus be pursued at the discretion of states as they see fit separate from the broader MCUR framework."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on May 16, 2018, 01:16:00 PM

"I'm thankful for the step back however I still believe section 2 is unnecessary. The MCUR is a document that says what a nation must do, not what a nation may do. Therefore the guidance provided by that part of your suggestion isn't needed for the MCUR. If I may give an example, Article 16 which focuses on health care as a human right does not say that we must share technology, fund foreign works or are even encouraged to. Separate to the MCUR we have initiatives such as the Global Childbirth Initiative and the Joint Emergency Team, should we perhaps consider changing Article 16 to encourage signatories to do these things? I would say as the organisations that provide aid and the like change constantly. We fully support the first section though and as such believe that should be the sum of all that is needed for this article."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on May 23, 2018, 11:35:36 AM

bumping this

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Beatrice on May 26, 2018, 01:08:22 AM

"With these points being discussed I thus propose the following:"

Quote

1. All persons have the right to safe and clean drinking water and sanitation, as these are essential to the realisation and enjoyment of all human rights.

2. Signatories shall take all proper measures to ensure that commercial activities and projects do not erode the access of a community to clean, accessible and affordable drinking water and sanitation.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on May 30, 2018, 10:56:50 PM

"If I may suggest that the Rokkenjiman and Lodjan amendments be put to vote so that we may then proceed to deal with other prospective amendments." Serenity said, looking down at her notes

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Beatrice on May 31, 2018, 01:07:27 AM

"I second this call. Let us get these matters to vote so we may proceed," Euphemia said.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on June 04, 2018, 02:53:04 PM

The vote to include the following article shall be open to Wednesday 10pm GMT

1. All persons have the right to safe and clean drinking water and sanitation, as these are essential to the realisation and enjoyment of all human rights.

2. Signatories shall take all proper measures to ensure that commercial activities and projects do not erode the access of a community to clean, accessible and affordable drinking water and sanitation.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: The Young Pope on June 04, 2018, 05:00:40 PM

ES votes YES
Bretonnis votes YES

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Major Jaws on June 05, 2018, 01:27:56 PM

Quintelia votes yes

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on June 05, 2018, 03:20:48 PM

"Achkaerin votes in favour."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Beatrice on June 06, 2018, 09:04:27 PM

"Rokkenjima votes in favour."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: DaveIronside on June 06, 2018, 09:17:20 PM

EM say yes

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on June 07, 2018, 09:41:07 PM

"A clause on water as a right is now included, are there any other additions before we have the legal department write the charter up?"

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on June 07, 2018, 11:33:57 PM

"Yes there are two things that I would like to discuss, one of them is fairly simple while the other may need a little more discussion." Serenity said "First if I may direct attention to article 16 as proposed by our hosts it presently stands:

Quote

1. Everyone has the right to free emergency and essential health care, regardless of race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, religion or wealth.

2. Everyone has the right to the adequate living conditions, adequate food and a healthy and safe environment in order to maintain their health.

3. Health care institutions and providers must respect dignity, provide culturally appropriate care, be responsive to needs based on gender, age, culture, language, and different ways of life and abilities. Institutions must respect medical ethics and protect confidentiality.

4. Adequate health care infrastructure, goods and services must be available to all communities.

"Achkaerin would like to propose the following as an amendment to this article"

Quote

1. Everyone has the right to free emergency and essential health care, regardless of race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, religion or wealth.

2. Everyone has the right to the adequate living conditions, adequate food and a healthy and safe environment in order to maintain their health.

3. Health care institutions and providers must respect dignity, provide culturally appropriate care, be responsive to needs based on gender, age, culture, language, and different ways of life and abilities. Institutions must respect medical ethics and protect confidentiality.

4. Adequate health care infrastructure, goods and services must be available to all communities.

5. If the state is unable to provide treatment, or where it does not fall within their national healthcare provision, a person may travel abroad to seek treatment.

"It may not be the best wording but the intention is to accept that medical treatments and developments do develop at different speeds in different countries it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that a citizen of country X may not have access to suitable medical treatment but that such treatment is available in country Y, surely that citizen should be able to travel abroad to seek alternative treatment for the medical condition if such treatment is available." Serenity said, she paused "There's also the matter of article 20 which says the following."

Quote

Article 20 – Exclusion of other means of dispute settlement

The High Contracting Parties agree that, except by special agreement, they will not avail themselves of treaties, conventions or declarations in force between them for the purpose of submitting, by way of petition, a dispute arising out of the interpretation or application of this Convention.

"Achkaerin would like to propose that this article rather than excluding other means of dispute settlement should instead detail the means of dispute settlement." Serenity said "Something which is not presently noted anywhere in this convention and as such creates an enforcement and interpretation issue for all of us assembled here. Therefore we propose the following:"

Quote

Article 20 - Court of Human Rights

1. The Court of Human Rights shall be a legally binding international court that will be responsible for the interpretation of this Convention and sit in judgement of those accused of breaching the provisions of this convention. It shall consist of one judge from each signatory nation, three of these shall be picked at random to sit in judgement of a case. A judge may not sit in judgement of a person from their own nation. The Court has the right to sit in judgement of people accused of breaking the convention and if they are found guilty may pass sentence using laws from the accused own nation as a guideline. Court cases will always take place within a neutral nation and those found guilty may appeal however the grounds must be accepted by the court. Appeals will be considered by all judges save those of the nations involved in the case, a majority decision will either permit or dismiss an appeal.

"What this proposal does in our opinion is mirror the Uppsalla Convention, that treaty has a court that interprets it and that holds people accountable when it is breached, this means that there is a universally recognized authority responsible for settling disputes. We don't have that for the MCUR what we have is a state of affairs where conflicting points of view lead to public disagreement and no resolution. I'm an Achkaerinese citizen if I go to Rokkenjima and through some set of circumstances I end up being unlawfully arrested which would be a breach of this convention on the part of Rokkenjma how would I get justice? The simple answer is that it's a practical impossibility because the state of Rokkenjima is not subject to the jurisdiction of an Achkaerinese court. Queen Klara has stated that the MCUR is what a nation must do, therefore surely we should include within it the mechanism by which we as the signatory states make sure each other are doing what they have signed up to do."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on June 08, 2018, 08:24:29 AM

"First I believe the new addition to the medical treatment article is unnecessary we already have given people the right to leave any country, including his own. Therefore there is no reason to define it for medical purposes.

We have already seen how nations around this table interpret situations and matters differently. The fear is that should we have an international court we once again risk the issue of eroding the sovereignty of our nations. Imagine our nation for example where the people respect the fact that I join with the Goddess Sessifet, and that I appoint the judges for laws within our nation. Should this MCUR court rule differently to my own judges then we have a situation where a principle that underpins everything in Lodja is broken. Another example would be with the Maori of the Iwi, a belief that the various tribal councils, made up of the people, determine what is best for the people. We could very likely see situations where these councils are overruled by a court thousands of miles away from them that does not understand their culture. While individuals should have rights nations should have the right to have their culture and traditions respected, a foreign court overruling their own does not do this."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on June 09, 2018, 05:07:10 PM

"Your Majesty I respect your point and to a large extent agree with it. What I'm seeking to clarify is the means of dispute resolution. Nowhere in the present MCUR does it say anything about an exact process for dispute resolution except in article 20 where it states "The High Contracting Parties agree that, except by special agreement, they will not avail themselves of treaties, conventions or declarations in force between them for the purpose of submitting, by way of petition, a dispute arising out of the interpretation or application of this Convention."" Serenity said "This would due to the implications drawn from the phrase 'submitting by way of petition' imply the potential for multiple foreign interventions and rulings if a signatory nation challenged that a law brought into force in another signatory nation was in violation of this convention, as without a singular body stated that is the likely situation.

Ultimately my point is that the present article 20 is obsolete and should be replaced with a definition of how disputes are to be dealt with in a manner that holds signatory states to the document we are hopefully all going to sign in a few hours time."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on June 11, 2018, 11:59:10 AM

"If I may retort that your example is a poor one. As an Achkaerin citizen in Rokkenjima you are subject to Rokkenjiman law the moment you enter their nation. If you are wrongfully arrested your case is brought before a Rokkenjiman judge who will determine if you have been wrongfully arrested according to Rokkenjiman law. Being a foreign citizen does not mean the law of a nation does not apply to you. Just because, for example a nation permits the use of recreational cannabis that would not give you the right to smoke it in a nation that does not permit it to be used at all. There is no need for a dispute resolution unless what you claim is that there should be law in Lodja higher than Lodjain Law. There can be no presentation of petitions or the like if no international court exists. What is to stop a Lodjain who does not like the verdict of a home court using the MCUR in an attempt to overturn that verdict? That then creates a situation where a legally binding court with no knowledge of Lodjain law, culture or society may overrule our own judges. That will not be acceptable. Each nation already has a legal framework in place through which the MCUR can be utilised by individual citizens on a case by case basis. Putting a power higher than myself in Lodja would not maintain our law as supreme within our lands." Klara explained

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on June 13, 2018, 04:41:41 PM

"Then article 20 needs to reflect that." Serenity said "So may I suggest"

Quote

Article 20 - Conflicts on the application of this Convention to National Law

1. Where disputes concerning the application of this Convention arise it shall for the purposes of legal process be the responsibility of the state holding legal jurisdiction to dispense with the issue on a case by case basis according to their own statutory law and those found in other treaties that the state in question may be party to.

2. There shall be for the purposes of clarification of the effects of national law on the rights and freedoms of this document an advisory panel consisting of cultural, sociological and legal experts from each signatory state. This panel will give opinions in response to questions raised by states in regards to the application of this Convention to the national laws of the signatory states. The panel shall not hear disputes itself but opinions of the panel shall be considered evidential.

"This I believe to be a fair compromise, we correctly resolve the issue of who enforces which is the state with legal jurisdiction to do so, but we also create a body where questions can be asked, we also state that the body is not a court but a panel of experts who give an opinion similar to that of an expert witness to national governments when asked to do so. The only other option would be the removal of article 20 entirely."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on June 20, 2018, 09:34:15 AM

"Again I see the second section as an attempt to impose one set of laws on all. The only arbiter and interpreter of Lodjain law should be the Lodjains this panel of scholars and experts should not be able to even suggest the way we apply our laws. Every nation upon signing this document are enshrining this into our legal framework, a Lodjain legal framework. This is not a Mundus legal framework, yes we have international tribunals such as the Uppsala Convention but that is crime committed across many juristictions and in extreme circumstances, an international response is not only the sensible one but the needed one. International intervention into whether someone can have breast enlargement surgery in Lodjain hospitals is not."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: BenOfTheIwi on June 27, 2018, 12:22:11 PM

The Iwi's representative spoke up, "I am afraid that we too must leave the meeting. The imposition of many of these rulings are in our view an imposition on our tribal sovereignty. As such we can't pass this document here today. We shall therefore return to our people examine what you produce and the Tribal Council shall discuss whether it is compatible, should it be we shall adopt it. In its current form we can not accept a treaty that does not recognise the existence of genders, our society has clear cultural traditions based on gender and imposing a genderless society upon us means this will erode our culture which has been fought so hard for by our people in order to maintain it while the Seleuced tried to dismantle it. Should this treaty pass in its current form then we shall amend it and produce our national version."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on June 29, 2018, 11:49:42 PM

"Then Achkaerin will withdraw the second point of the proposal and submit the first alone." Melinda said "We therefore suggest that the first point of the proposal be put to vote and then should there be no further suggestions that we proceed to signature."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on July 21, 2018, 10:43:07 PM

Very well lets get this to vote.

Article 20 - Conflicts on the application of this Convention to National Law

1. Where disputes concerning the application of this Convention arise it shall for the purposes of legal process be the responsibility of the state holding legal jurisdiction to dispense with the issue on a case by case basis according to their own statutory law and those found in other treaties that the state in question may be party to.

Voting open to Wednesday 25th July 2018

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Major Jaws on July 22, 2018, 04:21:33 AM

Quintelia votes yes

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on July 25, 2018, 08:02:39 PM

Achkaerin votes yes

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: DaveIronside on July 25, 2018, 08:12:36 PM

Em say yes

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: CGJ on July 26, 2018, 01:22:30 AM

Dart says yes to all.

"I do hope, however," the Dartfordia delegate added, "that in future we may discuss further the establishment of a Court of Human Rights as proposed by Achkaerin. Our suggestion would not necessarily be a binding court, but rather one that offers a standardised and universal opinion which national courts can refer to in their judgements."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Beatrice on July 27, 2018, 01:08:57 AM

"Rokkenjima votes aye and concurs with our Dartfordian friends."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on July 31, 2018, 11:52:10 PM

"This brings and end to the discussions then" Klara announced breathing a sigh of relief. "This is the document we have created, it now comes down to each nations conscience as to whether they will sign it.

Spoiler: Final Copy of what we have agreed • show

Klara stood behind the table with the new document in front of her. "As this was originally created in Dartfordia I believe it only fitting they be the first to sign the new amended version.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: CGJ on August 01, 2018, 12:51:37 AM

The Dartfordian Foreign Secretary, Johnathon Lankly, nodded appreciatively towards Klara, before setting down and signing on behalf of the King of Dartfordia. "Thank you, and as hosts for today, I believe it would only be fitting for Lodja's signature to go next."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Libby on August 01, 2018, 10:54:45 PM

Klara took the pen from Lankly and sat down. "I believe today we have extended the number of rights people on Mundus have, and hopefully we shall now extend the number of people that enjoy them. I for one am about to add 164million more citizens to this treaty." With that she picked up the pen and added her signature to the document. She placed it carefully on the wooden block next to the treaty and stood aside for the next person to sign.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Achkaerin on August 03, 2018, 12:22:27 PM

Serenity picked up the pen she'd been happy a few years earlier in Churchill with the original, she was still happy now with the new version. She span the pen for a moment between her index and ring fingers, it was a bit of a habit she'd never really kicked. She knew she hadn't got everything she'd have liked but defending certain things was more than enough for her. Just as she had at Churchill she signed her name to the document and smiled

"The more nations this works for, the more people we protect with it, let's call today a start." she said as she put the pen down and stepped away

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: KrisNord on August 05, 2018, 08:36:05 PM

Next up to sign was the Cenneslaig representative who replaced the pen and took their seat.

The Alander representative meanwhile stood, "My apologise but the fact that so many nations wish to see a kind of international court for this means in the future this is something likely to be pushed for and added to this charter. We have no wish to change our laws to be compatible with the MCUR only to one day give oversight to a foreign body. As such we will not be signing this charter."

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: DaveIronside on August 05, 2018, 09:33:49 PM

King David was disappointed to hear the Nords weren't signing but he did share some of their concerns he however believed that when the time came they'd be able to fight off the amendments that impinged on national authority. Even if he was wrong it didn't stop them withdrawing but he'd cross that bridge if and when it happened. "Well I'm glad thats over" he smiled as he signed it.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Beatrice on August 05, 2018, 09:40:27 PM

"While clearly compromise was required at times, I believe that we've accomplished many great strides over the course of this process to produce a Convention which expands the reach of the MCUR in ways which were not previously possible. Just as before, the First Empire is pleased to affix its signature upon this most crucial cornerstone of the international system. As time passes I remain confident that we may further strengthen the MCUR and ensure it stands as a testament to the eternally progressive march of the rights of all who call Mundus home."

(https://s15.postimg.cc/6k45zeaf1/Eva_Signature.png)

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Major Jaws on August 05, 2018, 11:30:45 PM

Next up was King Lapu, who gave a discreet yawn before picking up the pen. "Eight years ago, the former Quintelian government upheld the opposite of what's written here; progress. Now, I shall bring progress in Quintelia and give more rightful rights to those in need." After signing, he put the pen back for the next one.

Title: Re: Invitation to adjust the MCUR
Post by: Arda Tuluva on August 06, 2018, 07:24:44 PM

"Each and everyone one of us represents a nation; each unique, with diverse cultures and traditions. Division and disagreement threatened to tear us asunder. Yet, we have persevered. Through understanding and toil the international community has united, come to a consensus for the betterment of Mundus. Honor and glory." The Arda Tuluvan First Minister, Cormarë Vercatauronámë, said before she signed the document. "Let is be known, that I shall personally present an official copy of the Treaty of the Mundus Convention on Human Rights to Her Most Sublime and August Majesty, the Empress - might she live forever! - for Arda Tuluva's final consideration and ratification of this treaty."

The Independent Order

Roleplay => Convention Centre => Topic started by: Libby on February 22, 2018, 05:48:37 PM