Council of Albion - Admission of Aschlon

[Libby]

Following prodecures the government of Tytor have raised objections to the admission of Aschlon as a member of the organisation.

If Tytor wish to outline their concerns then the council can vote on a way forward. The reason given in Tytor's official request is "the systemic persecution of religious people within their borders."

It is understood that the nation has taken very little action against lynchings of members of the  Aschlon Holy Church and has furthermore closed religious newspapers. Does the representative of Tytor wish to add information to this before voting is carried out.

[Tytor]

As far as concerns go, these examples suffice for the present.  The Kingdom of Tytor would like to hear an explanation from Aschlon, including a summary of steps the Aschlonian government is willing to take to alleviate these humanitarian concerns.

[Geo]

Our “systematic persecution of religious people within [our] borders” is largely untrue. Whilst lynches are regrettable, there is very little Aschlonian police can do, due to them very often being alerted to the incident near its end. Often even if they do arrive in time to potentially stop the event, they are unable to stop the situation due to the lynchers being ready to kill, and the police being unable to use lethal force, creating a situation where they risk their lives. Additionally, upon further investigation, most of these lynches are found to have few connections to religion.
When we banned pro-religious papers we did it in response to the NACG’s terrorist attack on the Tarc, which resulted in its destruction, the death of 36 men and women, three of which were Representatives. In order to hopefully prevent any attack like that again, we shut down many of the possible ways they could spread their extremist views. This unfortunately included shutting down radically religious newspapers.

[RobertAgira]

The Bakkermayan ambassador spoke. "The key word in the news article brought to our attention was "systematic" which refers to the notion of their being some kind of plan in place to allow persecution to exist. You said it is largely untrue. That means then that their must be a small element of truth. How is Aschlon systematically persecuting people in a small way? If these lynchings have little to do with religion why else are they happening? As a nation you control the flow of information to the outside of your nation via the A.N.N. why should we therefore trust the information we have had access to, especially since you have banned ALL religious papers rather than just those proven to be extremeist, are you saying all religious bodies in your nation are extremists?"

[Geo]

We say largely untrue, due to the fact that there have been a few, minor incidents in the past. In all instances, the officials orchestrating these matters were removed from any position of power and punished accordingly whilst the families were compensated. These incidents were not however covered in the ANN, to avoid an international scandal in which many nations would falsely assume that the deeds had been encouraged by the Tarc.
Several different reasons for the lynching happen. In fact, the police have found that only 48% of lynches have found to be the cause of religion. Instances have come up of the reason of lynching being rape victim's family members getting revenge on the rapist and their family.
Due to the unpopularity of the Holy Church of Aschlon during the times it was state enforced, many abandoned it for atheism, leaving the majority of its followers as zealots, and the papers they produced echoes their extremism. Most other religions in Aschlon did not have a large enough following to have their own newspapers, but those that did were banned in order to make sure that extremist groups could not just switch to a different religious newspaper.

[RobertAgira]

"Perhaps one of the issues is press freedom. You see we are being asked to make a decision about the admission of Aschlon based off media reports from the ANN. Now if that media is controlled by the government and we still have some questions about their admission into this organisation. If ANN cover up things so as to avoid an international scandal then what is the actual truth we should believe? It leaves things well and truly in the air. 48% of lynchings are caused by religion, the fact any lynchings exist is something to make us wonder about the effectiveness of law and order, however the fact that nearly half are because of religion is shocking. If we admit Aschlon into this organisation travel between all these nations here and Aschlon will become easier and perhaps more frequent. What can we be told to reassure us that for example a Bakkermayan visiting won't be lynched because they are devout followers of the Cult of Helus, or a Paracambian wouldn't be because of their commitment to the Vodou faith."

[Geo]

"You do raise a good point. After much consideration we (the Tarc) have agreed to release all articles written by non-ANN newspapers for your viewership, to give you the option to see all of Aschlon. (OOC- if you want to see any aritcles please ask). Lynching happens almost exclusively in our capital, Hootoft City, where the streets are so constantly crowded, it is impossible to drive a car. This means our police force have to arrive at the scene of the crime on foot, which is obviously not easy. The amount of lynchings are mainly between 7 or 8 each year, this statistic having been gotten from the Anarchy and the last few years the government has been in control. In fact the chances of a tourist being lynched in a city of 6 million is statistically unlikely. 1 in 928571.429 be exact. That means that for every 9258571 tourists that visit that one city, 1 will be lynched. There is a greater chance that they will be bitten by a venemous snake than get lynched.

[Libby]

Figure this has been sat long enough.

Voting opened of admission.

Closing time is 10pm UK time on Thursday.

[Tytor]

The Kingdom of Tytor votes nay, with the understanding that if universal assent is required and the rest of the Council votes yea, then Tytor will change its vote to an abstention.

[RobertAgira]

OOC - I'll take this on...lol


"While I believe it is understandable that we can not admit a nation that in the eyes of some of us in the room is not pro-actively looking to protect people from the mob I think it is unwise to have this organisation build no ties with Aschlon. Therefore the Grand Duchy of Bakkermaya is willing to support offering a deal to Aschlon. My initial ideas are as follows."

In order to promote co-operation across Albion and to begin fostering good realtions with Aschlon the membership of the Council of Albion have agreed the following articles with Aschlon.

1. The Nations of the Council of Albion and Aschlon agree to share intelligence of potential terrorist threats towards each other unless in doing so they would endanger their own nation.

2. The Nations of the Council of Albion and Aschlon agree to remove visas as long as the following conditions are meet.

a) The purpose for travel is not connected to any economic activity.
b) The traveller has a return ticket booked for within 21 days of their arrival.
c) The traveller has sufficent funds to cover the duration of their stay.
d) The traveller is not deemed a security risk by the receiving nation.

3. The Nations of the Council of Albion and Aschlon agree  to extradite suspected criminals so long as the following conditions are meet.

a) Evidence to support the suspicion are presented.
b) The suspected criminal is guarenteed a fair trial
c) Torture is not used as any part of the legal process.
d) The suspect does not face the death penalty.

"I hope this is something the Council, and indeed Aschlon would consider." 

[Libby]

Lodja would support this with a 2 year limitation before reconsidering it.

[Geo]

OOC- I will be taking you up on the offer, I just have a lot on my plate at the moment

[Geo]

The Tarc is willing to accept these terms.
However ASSO, has requested that the final point of the last clause is removed. The Tarc however understands that if it is non-negotiable, ASSO will have to do without.

[RobertAgira]

Bakkermaya will only be part of this agreement should the provision remain to allow us to opt out of extraditing people who stand to be executed. While Bakkermaya practices the death penalty it does so only for convictions of murder and treason. We however would not like to be in a situation where we are commited by treaty to extradite someone to face the death penalty for say theft. The treaty as it stands would not rule out extradition if the death penalty is called for however it would provide nations with ethical concerns a way of avoiding such a problem.

[Libby]

Lodja supports Bakkermaya's point of view.

[Tytor]

Bearing the Bakkermayan statement in mind, the Kingdom of Tytor wishes to note that the contested provision of the proposed agreement as it stands does in fact read as a formal prohibition against extradition in any case involving the death penalty, without exception.  While Tytor has no objection to this, if the intention is to include an exception for those countries who wish to make it, in those cases in which they feel it warranted, then perhaps a revision of the clause in question is in order.

[Geo]

Aschlon would like to point out to the Council that the only crimes it punishes with Death is conspiracy to greater crimes against the people, greater crimes against the people, conspiracy to greater crimes against the state and greater crimes against the state.
As such, the only people whose extradition would result in death are serious criminals or terrorists.

[Tytor]

Aschlon surely recognizes that "serious criminals" is a subjective term, and that for all this Council knows the term may include just about anything.  The Kingdom of Tytor would have no intention of extraditing an individual charged with "greater crimes against the people" if the "greater crime" in question was, say, embezzlement at a public bank, for example.  Tytor fully supports the inclusion of this clause, with or without the adjustments that would be necessary to allow it to fit Bakkermaya's intended interpretation.

[Geo]

Greater Crimes Against The People is mainly comprised of different charges of grievous bodily harm (including murder) against members of the public.
Greater Crimes Against The State is mostly equivalent, except with the offence being against sate officials.
Crimes that do not result in the serious injury or death of one or more individuals are not classed as a "greater crime" and as such will not be punished by death.

[Tytor]

The point being made is that the term "greater crime" is entirely arbitrary, and can be changed through legal channels at any time.  Regardless of what Aschlon's present definition is, the Kingdom of Tytor has no intention of being required to extradite someone who is facing the death penalty for any crime that a Tytorian court would not agree was worthy of it.  As such, Tytor will continue to support the final clause's inclusion, with or without the aforementioned adjustments.  If it is not included, then Tytor will not sign.

[Geo]

Putting the legal name of the crime aside, the only offence punishable by death in Aschlon is murder or assault that results in grevious bodily harm.
We understand that many other nations practice capital punishment for these same crimes.
However, the Tarc does recognise Tytor's arguemnt. As such we suggest a counter to ASSO's request of completely removing the clause, we could instead make extradition for execution only neccesary if the crime for which they would be executed is also punished with death in the nation they are being extradited from.