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Offline Achkaerin

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The Crusades OOC Discussion
« on: October 04, 2017, 12:46:21 AM »
Ok so with Vanora having gone on the map thus establishing a Holy Land, it's opened up the possibility to explore a little further back in history than we normally tend to. In this instance I'd like to play out the Crusade era - these are based on factbooks known to have happened and it allows us to explore not just the history of our nations but also historical figures and help establish a part of a nations history.

I therefore propose to (subject to interest) RP the Crusade era as it were starting from the first Crusade and seeing where we get to. I am aware that not every nation is Christian or Muslim in fact forms of Paganism seem to dominate the nations of Mundus so I think given the historical nature it would be fair to allow people to RP as a character from one of these nations if they so wish - I do intend to have medieval Achkaerin involved so I can RP the establishment of a relationship that will help in fleshing out Vanora in the MT setting.

Final points I would propose 12th century (1100's) as a general setting time wise but also an understanding that we wouldn't necessarily have the same number of crusades as happened in RL (which I believe to be almost 20), given Mundus's preference of Paganism and the likely diminished number of directly affected nations I think the number would be far less than this on Mundus.

So thoughts, comments?

Offline Weremark

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2017, 01:40:23 AM »
I think it's worth noting that though the most famous and largest crusades IRL were against the Muslims, Crusades were also launched against Lithuanian pagans in the north, and we could theoretically extend that to Pagan nations here, for example a Nordic Crusade targeting Odinist/Wotanist states, or Crusades targeting The Cult of Helus, for example.




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Offline Sam

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2017, 08:47:43 AM »
The word Crusade comes from the word crucesignatus, one who was signed with the cross, so it refers to Christianity specifically. Pagans can have their own religious conflicts, but the original crusades on Mundus would be over Vanora, analogous to Palestine as a culturally and religiously significant place for the Abrahamic faiths. Vanora presumably wouldn't be so significant to pagans.

Since I'm the only player with a Muslim culture as far as I'm aware, are there any objections to placing Mecca and Medina in Saheristan?

This isn't massively significant, but I do think Vanora is really far away from most players. Most importantly it's on the other side of the world from the Papacy. Considering the vast majority of Crusaders walked to the Holy Land,would a more central location not be best? Also, judging by the location in the high north, it seems the Holy Land would be a cold place. That's not a problem in itself, just noting that it changes the imagery a bit.

Since the Crusades were kicked of by the Eastern Roman Empire calling the Pope for aid, we also need to take into account what triggers this. The obvious solution is Islamic conquest of the Holy Land. I'd love to do this but Vanora is the other side of the continent from Saheristan, so I'd need a massive empire to do it, if Vanora stays where it is now.

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Offline Weremark

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2017, 01:04:09 PM »
The word Crusade comes from the word crucesignatus, one who was signed with the cross, so it refers to Christianity specifically. Pagans can have their own religious conflicts, but the original crusades on Mundus would be over Vanora, analogous to Palestine as a culturally and religiously significant place for the Abrahamic faiths. Vanora presumably wouldn't be so significant to pagans.


I meant it moreso as Crusades by Christians targeting Pagans, like the Wendish crusade.




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Offline Achkaerin

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2017, 02:30:22 PM »
The issue I foresee with targeting Pagans is that there's a vast amount of Pagan faiths on Mundus each confined to certain areas for example the Cult of Helus would only in a Medieval setting likely be found in East Moreland and part of Mercia depending on the date.

I believe the major Christian nations presently stand as ES, Mercia, Solonya and Vafleon. The major Muslim nations I believe are Kaiser Adolf, Saheristan and Rashidun in terms of played nations. Given that KA is inactive at the moment Sam I would suggest you consult with Zee in terms of Mecca and Medina.

My working was to have Vanora get attacked and mostly conquered (not completely subjugated but loss of key holy sites such as Jerusalem to the invader) I did initially figure Abydos for this role as it was at the time a Muslim nation and is close enough to do that. I do concede that Vanora is a bit of trek away for several nations that would likely be involved this is down to Vanora's position being for various reasons tied to Abydos's position and Abydos does need to be on the northern coast of Aranye due to the role it's meant in the war period history.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 08:22:17 PM by Achkaerin »

Offline The Young Pope

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2017, 02:47:11 PM »
We should also discuss key, influential battles between thes sides participating in the crusade, on a LOTR scale in terms of epicness!

Offline DaveIronside

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2017, 03:26:24 PM »
If your doing this I'd suggest the best way would be first to start off a timeline.

So when did it begin? What was the catalyst?

How did the various factions form?

How did the factions get to the Holy Land?

Who occupied the area at each time?

Once you have these bigger pictures sorted you can then work almost backwards and fill in things like key battles/campaigns etc.

Offline Norgeras

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2017, 04:36:12 PM »
Definitely interested, considering i have a Holy Knight order to flesh out. Seems like a good opportunity

Offline Glitchy

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2017, 05:32:50 PM »
Another question that's come to mind is how the big empires in our fluff come into some sort of crusade, i.e the Ardian Empire etc.

Especially playing as a nation that certainly had nothing more than hunter-gatherer tribes at the general time of any crusades, it would be nice to hop in through other outlets rather than just our current/modern nations.
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Offline The Young Pope

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2017, 10:08:30 PM »
Let it begin in 1095/06? (rl date)

Offline Achkaerin

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2017, 01:09:56 AM »
So taking Dave's suggestion I think we work with the following

Let's assume it starts 1095 as TYP suggested

At that point Abydos invades Vanora, takes holy sites drives people into exile etc, Holy land occupied by Abydos to joy of other Muslim nations, Vanoran leader in exile sends word to the Pope.

1st Crusade called by the Pope can occur quite swiftly after that I would think.

In terms of numbers of Crusades I think three may work best, if we assume an offensive and counter offensive assumption so I would suggest broadly:
  • 1st Crusade reclaims Holy Land for Christians
  • Muslim counter offensive from the south reclaims some of Vanora including Jerusalem drives Christian forces north
  • 2nd Crusade called result being Jerusalem retaken, Muslims mostly driven out
  • Muslim counter invasion of Vanora (a major one so huge numbers) Christian armies (and allies) massacred, mostly driven from Vanora, Jersualem besieged
  • Third Crusade called - Jerusalem siege ends during this

The resolution of the the third Crusade can either be at Jerusalem or a decisive battle following the end of that siege.

Getting to the Holy Land sounds relatively easy by land or sea I would expect in most cases it would be sea though given the rules regarding movement through unclaimed territory it's theoretically possible to go over land as well. Given the distance that for example ES would have to travel we're talking months for them to get there, so I'd suggest incorporating a time jump early on once the first crusade is called.


Offline Weremark

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2017, 04:30:46 AM »
Per mine, Aurora, and Heimar's history, this is what I've written the Kingdom of Weremark to have looked like in 1096:



This would put both me and Heimar (though then that land was hundreds of small disunified duchies) as potential players given proximity to Vanora, however, as stated before that whole area is a pagan stronghold, so it wouldn't have much to do with the crusade itself.  This was Weremark just before its height, which bears little resemblance importance-wise to modern Weremark.





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Offline The Young Pope

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2017, 10:38:07 PM »
What about this timeline suggestion?

- 1st Crusade reclaims Holy Land for Christians = 1095

- Muslim counter offensive from the south reclaims some of Vanora including Jerusalem drives Christian forces north = 1173

- 2nd Crusade called result being Jerusalem retaken, Muslims mostly driven out = 1251

- Muslim counter invasion of Vanora (a major one so huge numbers) Christian armies (and allies) massacred, mostly driven from Vanora, Jersualem besieged + Third Crusade called - Jerusalem siege ends during this = 1290

- Final, great decisive battle = 1291
 

Offline Achkaerin

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2017, 11:27:06 PM »
Timeline looks fine to me but though I'm querying the time differences a little but that's mostly immaterial.

I'm not sure whether I'd want this to end with a decisive battle while it's in theory a good idea, I'm leaning to more symbolic end to this at the end of the Jerusalem siege rather than a battle to finish it off because the cycle of crusade to counter invasion to crusade needs to end.

That said if it were a decisive battle we're looking at probably a Pyrrhic victory for the Christian side of this with terms similar to what the symbolic end at Jerusalem would equate to.  So can work either way just depends what people want.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 11:34:45 PM by Achkaerin »

Offline The Young Pope

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2017, 08:35:57 AM »
I mean if it's like Siege of Minas Tirith-style of victory, fine by me too^^

Offline The Young Pope

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2017, 04:15:15 PM »
Btw, realized that besides Achkaerin to be among to respond first, Balticum would have been there early as well since a few yrs before the Muslim invasion the whole area was united under one Single Christian Monarch and she would have decided to go on crusading as a way for Balticum to gain legitimacy; perhaps Achkaerin and Balticum coordinated with each other first upon reaching Vanora?

Offline KaiserAdolf

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2017, 12:41:39 PM »
This is rather interesting :D. I can quite agree with the timeline suggestion. However, a few questions remain in my mind including the reason why Abydos attack did attack Vanora. We can't just assume they were so greedy and suddenly tried to rule over Jerusalem (or something). Well, of course that could happen if an evil leader was manipulating Islam for his own sake etc etc. I will try to reach an agreement with Sam and Zee with the Medina and Makkah location.

Offline The Young Pope

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2017, 01:01:23 PM »
Queen Cecilia the Conqueror, 1st Monarch of Balticum, would have been an interesting sight on the battlefield x))

Offline KaiserAdolf

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2017, 03:56:43 PM »
I have discussed with Sam on the matter before and we agreed that Medina would be located in Kaiser Adolf and Mecca in Saheristan. Although I will proceed with the name 'Medina' and I suggest the same for Mecca.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 04:42:48 PM by KaiserAdolf »

Offline Sam

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2017, 04:24:29 PM »
I have discussed with Sam on the matter before and we agreed that Medina would be located in Kaiser Adolf and Mecca in Saheristan. Although I won't proceed with the name 'Medina' and I suggest the same for Mecca.

I'll be keeping the name Mecca too, though Saheristanis would transliterate it as Makkah, which is closer to the Arabic pronunciation.

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Offline Achkaerin

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2017, 08:38:42 PM »
This is rather interesting :D. I can quite agree with the timeline suggestion. However, a few questions remain in my mind including the reason why Abydos attack did attack Vanora. We can't just assume they were so greedy and suddenly tried to rule over Jerusalem (or something). Well, of course that could happen if an evil leader was manipulating Islam for his own sake etc etc. I will try to reach an agreement with Sam and Zee with the Medina and Makkah location.

My working hypothesis is a version of that - I'm figuring that Abydos loses a great leader and a warmongering heir takes over, with trouble at home he opts for war abroad, as he hopes to make his name and silence the critics at home, ultimately this will historically play into what happens to Abydos towards the end of the Crusade era and how the nation ends up as it is in the 20th century.

Offline The Young Pope

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2017, 03:35:12 PM »
For the eventual Crusader RP, I'm proposing that it could be known as 'Desert Rose' too, with the theme song with the same name made by Sting feat. Cheb Mami; The song truly represents the both sides (Sting as Crusaders and Cheb as Jihadists) both fighting for the Holy Land/City in such a beautiful way with religious/biblical tones, uniting as well the West and the East, as I could see the 'Desert Rose' symbolize Vanora's Jerusalem, which in that case that's what at least ES Christians would call it. (the song originally depicts Adam's agony after he was banished from Eden. Eve is referred to as the "desert rose")


Tell me what you think! :)

Offline DaveIronside

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2017, 04:21:31 PM »
If we're crusadering then as a History geek allow me to throw in my proposal. However I'm not 100% up to speed on the various places as Achkaerin did all that while I was on "holiday"

1. The year is c.1090, the city of NotJerusalem is under the control of a council made up of Jewish and Islamic nobles under a "King" who believes that all "People of the Book" should be living in peace, as such for the length of his rule he has permitted Pilgrims of all faiths to enter NotJerusalem so long as they leave their weapons at the Gates. This has seen him grow wealthy.

2. Fast forward to c.1095 - The "King" dies however his eldest son is feeble minded while his second son is highly ambitious, finding support amongst extremists Muslims he begins persecuting the Jews who live in NotJerusalem and descecrating Christian Holy sites.

3. Across Mundus the power of the Catholic Church has been growing in certain nations and this has seen some royals become concerned. Believing that some nations may lead a "rebellion" against him Pope ????? determines to weaken their armies, while at the same time defending the Holy Sites. In c.1096 a Papal Bull is issued that promises any soldier who fights for the faith in NotJerusalem a place in heaven. As such thousands of potential "rebels" take up the call, including some monarchs, and head to NotJerusalem.

4. Those arriving from Albion and Eastern Ardia arrive in Mountjoy which becomes a kind of staging post for those soldiers. This helps explain Mountjoy's religious connection and it's "Order" concept. Perhaps those in Western Ardia could have gone through Neu Uburzis and then Solonia which would explain their Christian past.

5. The first Crusade lasts until around 1100 when the city of NotJerusalem falls and the Crusader Knights proclaim a King of NotJerusalem who is supported by the Pope. The King rules with an iron fist, restoring religious sites and expanding them. Pilgrims begin once more to flock and many soldiers remain taking over land from the defeated enemy.

6. In around c.1105 the King of NotJerusalem experiences a schism when the Pope refuses to appoint the King of NotJerusalems choice for Archbishop to the position. This splits the Crusaders who stayed in the Holy Land and a series of scuffles breaks out amongst the two factions. The Muslim contingent in the region see this as an opportunity and launch an offensive of their own, creating a three way battle.

7. Eventually the fighting turns into a stalemate between the three factions, The Conference of (insert city) takes place and the two Christian factions reconcile their differences coming to an agreement about future appointments and the rights of the King and Pope over the city.

8. The newly united Christian faction experiences a series of defeats and is pushed from the city. A new tolerant Muslim leader takes control and agrees to open the city to people of all faiths along similar lines to what originally existed. The Christian Knights are permitted to keep their territory in exchange for promises to not rebel. Most agree.

9. In c.1130 The Muslim leader dies and a new Pope proclaims that the Knights old promises are no longer valid. He begins urging them to take back the Holy Land and a Siege of the city of NotJerusalem begins soon after.

10. Sensing an opportunity the Jewish community sides with the Christians and within two years they have taken back the city installing a new King. The new King forbids Muslims from entering the city however Jews are permitted.

11. In c.1135 at Passover a Blood Libel is spread stating that the blood above Jews doors is the blood of children. As such a great massacre of Jews begins in the city seeing thousands brutally put to the sword, the KIng attempts to stop this only after one of the cities Synagogues is burnt down damaging a neighbouring Church.

12. The Jews now convinced they will eventually be pushed from the city begin a secret deal with the Muslims who begin raiding Christian pilgrims and trade caravans.

13. By c.1137 the Muslim army has advanced towards NotJerusalem and lays siege to the city. Three weeks into the siege a Muslim assassin is let into the city through secret paths by a Jewish rebel, the King is slaughtered without an heir leading to confusion in the Christian ranks. The siege lasts two more weeks before the city is stormed and capitulates easily. The Muslim leader executes several hundred Christian Knights belonging to certain orders.

14. Despite the brutality of the war the new Muslim leader establishes a new council made up of three nobles, a Christian, a Jew and a Muslim. Christians and Jews may live peacefully in the city so long as they pay an extra tax and refrain from certain public actions during Ramadan. This appeases most of the citizens who live happily.

15. One of the Orders whose Knights were executed however want to seek revenge and begin co-ordinating with the others to begin a new war.

16. By c. 1148 the Orders have built up their strength and funds and without the Popes backing launch a series of raids in the Holy Land.


17. The Pope sends word to NotJerusalem that these soldiers do not have his blessing and excommunicates them. In the months that followed a Pope backed Christian Army marches to the Holy Land and a stand off begins between the two Christian factions with the Muslims watching from the city.

18. The Alliance of NotJerusalem begins after the Pope backed Army arrives. This sees the Rebel Christian Armies rank and file execute their own leadership in exchange for being welcomed back into the Church. The Alliance then begins controlling the area around NotJerusalem in an uneasy peace with the city itself controlled by Muslims. This lasts for around 20 years and during this time their is the odd raid but nothing major.

19. In c1168 a new Pope is under fire for not taking enough interest in NotJerusalem, as such he orders that the city must have a Christian leader. He orders a Knight called ???????? to begin negotiations with the Muslims to find a peaceful solution, however ??????? is killed by brigands while travelling. His body is found by Jewish traders who see a chance of being able to return to the city and so they tell the Christians they witnessed a Muslim faction do this.

20. c.1170 word reaches the Pope of ??????? death and in response the man is made a Saintly Martyr. A new Crusade is called in his name and thousands flock to the Holy Land once more. A series of campaigns are fought and by c.1178 the Holy Land is back in Christian hands. A descendent of ??????? is appointed as King of NotJerusalem and without the Pope's backing he takes a Muslim wife in order to unite the two factions.

21. In c1230 the peace is shattered when a Christian "Cult" begins in the city which the King (descendent of c.1170 guy) fails to deal with the Cult. This Cult believes the 2nd coming of Christ is close and that will happen only once NotJerusalem is only inhabited by Christians. A great slaughter takes place as a large number of the populance rise up against their neighbours and even the Christian soldiers who seek to protect them.

22. Despite the Cult being put down with a week news reaches the Muslim and Jewish leaders who both march on NotJerusalem to seek vengeance. Along the road their armies fight a small battle which ends in a stalemate, the two rulers agree to work together rather than fight and in c.1235 a combined Jewish/Muslim army have reached NotJerusalem.

23. c.1240 the city of NotJerusalem is on the verge of falling, the Pope however offers a deal. He will not agree to send further armies should the Jews/Muslim alliance permit soldiers to leave the city and never return, the new ruler permit a Christian on their council and the Holy Sites be protected by members of approved religious orders (maybe this would explain why a small contingent of the Order of Mountjoy is still permitted to stand guard in NotJerusalem.)

THE END.

Offline RobertAgira

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2017, 08:11:38 PM »
Sounds like a plan to me.

Offline Achkaerin

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2017, 09:15:08 PM »
Remarkably close to my working narrative, actually helps fill in the gaps in places, though I may tweak a few bits and pieces to make it fit with how Vanora is, other than that I like it.

Offline DaveIronside

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Re: The Crusades OOC Discussion
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2017, 09:26:21 PM »
Can I suggest we share these tweaks, my understanding is the historic nations are supposed to be something the region worked on together and I think therefore it important to make the majority Christian and Islamic nations the kind of leads for this RP as the Crusade is essentially going to be a massive part of their history. For example ES has the Pope so their going to be tied in massively, Mountjoy's whole history of foundation is based around Crusading. The historic nation of where Jerusalem is based is therefore of greater importance to them than many others on Mundus.