Author Topic: Invitation to adjust the MCUR (Read 23103 times)

Libby · « **on:** February 22, 2018, 05:48:37 PM »

OOC - The current treaty is below

Spoiler: The Mundus Convention on Universal Rights • show

INVITATION TO ISKOR TO REAFFIRM/AMEND THE MCUR

It has been brought to my attention that the Mundus Conventional of Universal Rights has failed in one of its articles. When the nations of the world gathered to sign the original treaty it included in Article 17.2 the wording "States party to this Convention shall attend an annual Universal Rights Conference on Universal Rights Day to reinforce and reaffirm each State’s commitment to Universal Rights, eject States who do not fulfil their obligations and, where all states party to the Convention agree, revise or amend the Convention." To date there has been no such conference.

With this in mind and because Lodja have concerns regarding some aspects of the current agreement I would like to invite all nations, both signatories and prospective signatories to join me in my birth city of Iskor in order to review and if appropriate sign an amended version of the MCUR. It is my hope that we can finally come up with an agreement the whole of Mundus can abide by.

Signed in hope

Queen Klara II of Lodja
Guardian of Sessifet.
Grand Cordon of the Supreme Order of the Phoenix.

DaveIronside · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2018, 08:00:56 PM »

To Her Majesty Queen Klara II

As a founder signatory nation of the MCUR I am more than happy for us to attend your meeting in order to hear your concerns and if possible improve upon the MCUR. I look forward to visiting Iskor in the near future.

May The Gods Watch Over You and Your Nation Know Peace
King David III of East Moreland.

Achkaerin · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2018, 08:48:12 PM »

To Her Majesty Queen Klara II

Achkaerin is one of of the founding signatories of the MCUR, we have over time come to realize in several circumstances since it's inception and entering into force that there are issues with it. Therefore I thank you for arranging this meeting, as was the case when the Treaty was conceived Achkaerin will be represented by my daughter Crown Princess Serenity, on this occasion I will also ask Senator Melinda Carter Achkaerin's EDI Minister to attend.

Yours

Emperor Peter Azurewind of Achkaerin

Beatrice · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2018, 08:58:44 PM »

Reaffirmation And Amendment Of The MCUR

As one of the original signatories of the Mundus Convention For Universal Rights I welcome the opportunity for our nations to join together as we review and, if necessary, amend this most crucial Treaty. Forwarding the values and principles upon which the MCUR was founded affords us an opportunity to ensure its continued potency and relevance as we move into the future.

It shall be my pleasure to visit Iskor on behalf of the First Empire and look forward to a productive and beneficial discussion. Joining me shall be Lord High Steward Koizumi as he continues his preparations to assume the duties of the Vicegerency following my return to military service.

Respectfully;

Euphemia Anselmo
Vicegerent of Rokkenjima
Princess of Estvua

Libby · « **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2018, 11:50:26 AM »

OOC- Even if you haven't RSVP'd feel free to arrive.

The Pelagiya family had been rather busy over the last few days, it wasn't every day the Queen of Lodja came to visit your estate, let alone bring with them the many esteemed dignatries that had agreed to come. Security at the islands tiny regional airport was tight, they'd even drafted in members of East Moreland's respected Red Legion who were in country helping train the Lodjain Commando unit that was being formed. Many locals had arrived to catch a glimpse of their new Queen, there was an added buzz around the coastal resort town of Iskor, it was the first time they'd be welcoming back home Tatiana, now Queen Klara, the 18 year old monarch had grown up in the city, spent her times on its sandy beaches and was a member of the prestigious dance school on the island. For the Pelagiya family it was also the first time Stasya had been home in almost a year, her duties as a Lady in Waiting had kept her busy, it would feel strange her being here but as part of the Queen's retinue.

The Duke of Pelagiya, a small village that had long been absorbed into Iskor, was Stasya's father Tobias, he also held the title of Sheriff of Iskor, a title that no longer meant he was responsible for law and order but was rather a ceremonial role of swearing in new judges and policemen. It meant he knew most of the men and women who now double checked the security arrangements for the conference. He and his wife would be the first to greet the Queen and then officially hand over their home to her for as long as she needed.

As the Queen touched down in her private plane photographers jostled for the best view of her arrival. Groups of well wishers lined the airport fence some holding signs. Dressed in the traditional blue and gold dress Queen Klara descended the steps, she lacked the floating nature of her predecessor but still proved to be graceful. A loud cheer went up and she waved to the crowd as she made her way towards the Duchess of Pelagiya, Anuoshka. The Duchess bowed and was surprised that Klara hugged her, "The family of my Ladies are my family" the Queen said as she pulled away. "Thank you for your hospitality, I know it must be a great inconvenience but I so wanted to come home." the Queen walked with the Duchess towards her waiting car, "Perhaps you would do me the favour of staying here and welcoming the others, I shall leave Lady Stasya with you, it'll give you chance to catch up." With that the Queen was gone off to the estate a short drive away along the white sandy coast.

"Well, hows things with the new Queen?" Annoushka asked her daughter.

"Great, she's a lot more exciting" Stasya said, "She likes to get out and about, less time in the Conclave room, I think the Ministers are a little concerned as she drags them with her, says the Conclave is a group of people not a room."

"And you looking forward to seeing your lover again?" The mother teased her daughter over her relationship with King David, the two women shared everything and of course the Pelagiya family would be rather pleased to have the influence of a foreign monarch on their side. "If you hadn't got your claws into him I think I'd have made him husband number two." she chuckled.

"It was good seeing him at the coronation" Stasya smiled fond of the memory of their night together. "Just keep it quiet, its not the time nor place" the daughter chastised her mother. There was no time for a response as the first aircraft began its approach to the islands tiny airport.

DaveIronside · « **Reply #5 on:** February 27, 2018, 02:52:01 PM »

King David had no idea why he was so nervous, he'd been to literally hundreds of diplomatic meetings, he'd even been an original delegate at the creation of the MCUR and had been one of the few to demand amendments, but today he was rather more on edge. He was joined on the flight by the nations Prime Minister, Henrietta Quinn, she'd after all started East Moreland on international diplomacy as the co-author of the Cultural Exchange Treaty Organisation, she was calm as she knew the King would take the lead during talks. The truth was the King realised he was nervous because of where they were going, Iskor, a place where he'd be meeting Stasya's parents, the thought made him smile, it was the same feeling he'd had when he first meet Lord Osman his former father-in-law.

As the aircraft touched down he instantly recognised Stasya stood on the tarmac beside a woman he'd briefly meet at Freya's wedding. He took a deep breath as he pulled on his jacket and strapped on his ceremonial sword. He kept his eyes on Stasya as he approached and shook hands with the Duchess.

Achkaerin · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2018, 05:15:19 PM »

Serenity Azurewind, Crown Princess of Achkaerin sat aboard one of the Achkaerin Royal Family's aircraft as it headed to Lodja, the interior of the aircraft was split into mini rooms so Serenity was presently sat on the bed in what was her bedroom while aboard, a useful thing considering that Lodja was on the other side of the world from Achkaerin, she glanced over her shoulder at the mirror on the wardrobe door, the white sleeveless top she was wearing meant that the tattoo on the back of her right shoulder was visible. She was in a bit of a nostalgic mood, the last time she'd been anywhere to discuss the Mundus Convention of Universal Rights had been when the Convention had been first conceived and hammered out but on the flight home her plane had been taken over by the Borland Separatists and she'd spent three days locked into a battle of wits and survival with Kyle Barren. The tattoo was a reminder of that time as it had come about following a surgical procedure that Serenity had undergone following her escape and rescue. It also seemed that her father wasn't taking any chances on this occasion as very unusually four Harpy's had flown the trip as escorts, usually only two were assigned to this duty.

She felt the plane touch down and slow to a halt, picking up her leather jacket she stood and made her way into the main cabin where she found her companion for the trip Senator Melinda Carter, the EDI Minister in Achkaerin - EDI stood for Equality, Diversity and Inclusion.
"Are you ready Senator?" Serenity asked as she put her jacket on
"Yes Your Highness." Melinda said, she'd been going over some notes and doing her homework this was her first major trip abroad and the Senator was a little nervous, Serenity by comparison was far more experienced in this.
"Let's go." Serenity said

Serenity and Melinda descended the aircraft stairs Serenity's eyes honed in on the small group already present - Lodja, East Moreland and Baltikum. The Achkaerinese pair made their way towards the group, Serenity would at one time have been nervous herself but she'd done this so many times now, she shook first the hosts hand and then each of the other people present making sure to introduce Melinda to each of them.

CGJ · « **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2018, 02:02:07 AM »

John Lankly MP, the Dartfordian Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, arrived shortly after the Azurewinds. He had been sent to represent the government on his own, aside from his own officials. The previous time they had come together, it had been led by HRH the Princess Georgia, and this was perhaps indicative of the government's lack of...over-enthusiasm towards the treaty. Nevertheless, the government were prepared to seek to apply a long-standing multi-party belief - that an international court should be established to enforce MCUR.

He entered the hall, approaching some other delegates.

KrisNord · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2018, 11:02:38 AM »

It was well known that the people of Nya Åland had long refused to be part of the MCUR, in their eyes it took away rights of a nation to select its own path and was something designed to weaken culture, however Stein Ulfsson, the new Head Gothi understood the way things could be seen around the world and so was of course keen to at least be seen to do the right thing. With that in mind he had made the relatively short trip to Iskor via boat and had driven to the airfield to meet the rest. He recognised a faces that would be considered friends to Nya Åland, in particular the Achakerin and East Moreland representatives. He didn't know many of the others and therefore ensured he headed straight for King David. "Your Majesty, I'd just like to say thank you for your nations aid, I know my predecessor counted on your nation as a great friend and I hope I can continue that." He turned to Serenity, "and please pass on my same wishes to your father." He waited for the official welcoming party to be finished greeting the delegates from Heyra before making his own introductions.

Meanwhile as expected with anything going on in Albion it was left to Prince Lennox to attend on behalf of the Ui Cenneg government.

The Young Pope · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2018, 01:51:18 PM »

Pope Peter II was looking forward to this diplomatic gathering, as it was part of his goals to widen ES's horizons and gain new, valuable contacts; an exciting aspect of it all was the fact that one of ES's close allies and friends in the west, Heyra, was to be represented by VPFO Therz, always a pleasure and honor to work alongside he thought for himself, although it was obvious that he was there than to simply admire her good looks. After all ES hasn't signed the MCUR as of yet but TYP would have liked to if certain clauses in contradiction with the Catholic faith would be amended.

"Duchess Annoushka...Lady Stasya...King David himself, Everyone else...our paths intertwine with each other it seems."

Private message to Head Gothi Sten Ulfsson

Greetings my Nordic friend, or so I hope that we are. If not, both of us undertaking this event seems to be a good opportunity to do so. It may not be seen as obvious at first but NÅ and ES are much more similar than we might realise; both countries value the indigenous cultures, values and traditions that are so prised and valuable which means that unless the MCUR would receive some sort of facelift...it would be a shame otherwise. I wish for NÅ and ES to grow ever more closely with each other as neighbours no matter how different are supposed to depend and support one another...I deeply apologise for the lack of ES's absence in the Nordic crisis and now wish to deploy whatever aid is required from you as a form of redemption and committing on "Actions" and not only "Words".

Take Care and God Bless, Sincerely,

Pope Peter II of the Celestian Catholic Church and King-Bishop of ES

Libby · « **Reply #10 on:** March 02, 2018, 12:42:56 PM »

The Duchesss was rather pleased with the numbers so far, it would of course have been nice if they'd have had the full contingent from the original signing of the treaty but that was highly unlikely. The Duchess ensured that everyone was happy at the airport before ensuring that each of them were put into seperate cars and driven the 5km to the estate, the road wound through woodlands of pine trees until it reached a coastal road, the Alucard was crystal blue on the onside, white foam topped waves lapping on the sand, to the other side unspoilt forests. The white marble Pelagiya estate came into view, the fountain outside spraying a fine mist about the forecourt providing a rather refreshing break from the days heat. Stasya ensured that she and King David, along with Henrietta Quinn got into the last car, she'd have obviously prefered to have been alone with the King but that couldn't be helped.

Upon arrival at the Estate the Queen greeted them all and ushered them into the meeting room, it was usually used as a banqueting room but today had been furnished with a hollow square of tables. Each nation had a tiny flag to mark their spot and a folder and jug of water sat ready, it was iced because even with a nice breeze blowing through the room the temperature was likely to be well above that people like the Alanders were used to. Klara waited for everyone to take their seat before taking her own, Lord Besarian sat to her left and Anna Utkin, her Social Affairs minister sat behind her next to Leading Lady in Waiting Anna Immich. She was nervous, this was her first big speech since her coronation day a month earlier, in that time she'd done her best to grow into the role of Queen but it would still take some time and it ws likely to cause a few raised eyebrows.

"Esteemed guests from across Mundus, I would like to begin by thanking you for agreeing to come here today. I know that Lodja was not an original signatory of the MCUR, however it has been the case that many nations around Mundus have seen fit to not sign in the years that have followed. We must keep in mind that perhaps this means the MCUR is not fit for purpose and as such today is an oppurtunity to put that right. I however would not have called you here today had I not got something to offer these talks.

My first concern is this, the original MCUR is nothing short of a form of Cultural Imperialism, it was brought about by nations to reflect their way of life, assuming that to be the supreme one. There are many parts of that charter that do not stand compatible with Lodjain culture for example, one such case of this is Article 12 which currently states marriage is between two people. In Lodja a woman may take more than one husband, this is part of our faith and therefore including this in the charter actually imposes on our right of religion. A further issue is that the charter also forbids arranged marriages, it is custom in my own nation for example that my first marriage is selected for me by the Conclave, a symbol of trust between myself, Sessifet and her people. When Queen Viktoriya married Roman Chownyk Lodja technically violated the current MCUR. Now clearly the concept of monogamy will be something favoured by nations like the Ecclesiastical State, or East Moreland and their Cult of Helus, but as the charter stands our religious way of life her in Lodja is impeded.

The second concern I have is that the charter is hypocritical. The charter mentions the word "demoratic" seven times, yet when we look at the nations who have signed it many are not what people would consider democratic. We have for example East Moreland, a nation ruled by a monarch who can at a word overule the nations elected council. We have Lodja, where not every citizen is permitted to vote, and Rokkenjima a nation where the Empress has great power and that has just changed without a single vote being cast, meaning a great deal of power and influence sits in the hands of an unelected official. The charter assumes that only those people in a full democracy can experience human rights, that is far from the case. Lodja for example is not a place where people face abuses on a daily basis, yet according to this charter we are seen as a problem.

Thirdly the charter does not allow for nations to reflect the wishes of their people, something a democracy which the charter seems to favour would wish. The charter in several places restricts national sovereignty. For example, imagine a referendum in Lodja taking place, a true democratic ideal, at it voted to introduce a death penalty, we would be banned from doing so because of the MCUR. Therefore how can we be democratic? The will of the people can not be carried through. Even in the Right to Employment we have a clause saying everyone has the right to equal pay, would it not be right for people to be allowed to work for what they feel in their best interest. If someone is willing to work for less in order to ensure in tough economic times should it not be their right to negotiate their own wage? We have a section of the charter that reads "Technical and professional education shall be made widely available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit." which again imposes an international outlook on our nation. We also have the MCUR imposing budgets on nations by saying, "Everyone has the right to free and universal non-cosmetic medical treatment, including that of a psychological nature, in their country of origin. " Again what right does the world have to determine how our nation spends its tax funds, for example we charge higher taxes than a nation like Heyra, and we do provide free basic health care, however I suspect Heyra, a nation that has much lower taxes will do so in order to allow its citizens to make decisions on their own health care provision. The MCUR therefore forces Heyra to take part of their narrow government budget to make this provision.

I am aware several other nations will have issues with this charter. I therefore have taken the liberty of providing each of you with my initial thoughts on the matter."

Spoiler: show

"I therefore open the floor to other opinions."

The Young Pope · « **Reply #11 on:** March 02, 2018, 03:55:51 PM »

The Pope took his time to read through the first of many proposed alterations to the original MCUR charter which prevented the Ecclesiastical State from signing due to a conflict between religious faith and what the clauses stated, at least this was now an opportunity to haggle forth favorable conditions for countries such as ES where the traditional view on marriage is still strictly applied.

"I agree with my Lodjain colleague here about the old MCUR charter, which was indeed only promoting some sort of cultural imperialism and hypocricy at the highest level, such a laughable state of clauses I dare say, taking only into account those who've drafted it in the first place and expect everyone else in Mundus to exercise the same practices and values...In any case I don't have much to complain about, what her majesty suggested sounds good in my ears...however there's always that clause which seems to put everything on a ice hold...Article 12.1 regarding the institution of marriage...as everyone here knows well that ES is one of those countries where marriages of same-sex couples are highly controversial if I were to say it as mildly as possible. I suppose this could be solved by mentioning the term 'civil partnerships' as this is otherwise allowed in the Church State, performed in licensed facilities by secular registrators for instance.

I also have another question...does the MCUR somewhere along the lines fully require that same-sex couples should and can be able to adopt children? That's everything that I got to have a word on, will come back with eventual questions naturally..."

Achkaerin · « **Reply #12 on:** March 02, 2018, 07:53:03 PM »

And now I wonder what possessed me to say that I'd put myself through this for the second time Serenity thought, this conference had started out pretty much the same as the first one had. Only where it had been Dominiscius last time it was the Ecclesiastical State this time. Though the suggestion of cultural imperialism and hypocrisy was laughable. She read the proposed changes and as her eyes went down the document the alarm bells started ringing.

"Myself and King David had the opportunity to represent our respective nations at the table when this Convention was originally agreed. Now I read the draft proposal for the currently in force charter on the flight down from Achkaerin to Dartfordia. And it didn't take much working out to realize that the major negotiating battle was going to be over Articles twelve and thirteen, the right to marry and the right to change gender. So I'm a more than a little disappointed to see that article thirteen has been removed from this proposed redraft with no apparent reasoning for the decision which is baffling considering that what that article amounted to was an recognition that people have a right to change their gender and to have gender reassignment surgery where possible, that if the surgery is not available in their country they can go elsewhere to have it and return home without facing prejudice - by which we mean criminal charge, and also a note that if such a change happened in a marriage it would still be considered valid. I would request an explanation from our host as to why that has been removed given that it is a safeguarded provision that doesn't infringe on any nation's sovereignty or budget. I propose its reinstatement.

The reason here is that articles twelve and thirteen, whether you agree with them or not, have come to symbolise the recognized rights of the LGBT community on an international level, this is a community that includes prominent people such as my cousin and the former leader of the UNP. Use of the words "sexual orientation" in article twelve gives support to same sex relationships recognizing them as lawful under certain circumstances, the right to change gender as article thirteen recognizes the rights of those in society who are transgender. So we have before us an international signed by a diverse range of nations in terms of religion, ethnicity, ideology and other aspects and I'll tell you it took a lot of intense negotiation to get what we have, to step back from that would be seen as an outright betrayal of that community. I don't see the value in opening up a Pandora's Box when we don't need to.

Now in respect to the points raised by the Pope let's not see road blocks where there aren't any. Article twelve is termed the right to marry because it applies to everyone - heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual it is not called the right to same sex marriage, it simply includes that within its scope which does make the article a bit of a misnomer in title. The actual legalities are left to individual nations as stated in 12.1 "according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right" now in simple terms that means the right to marry, by which we mean enter into a lifelong partnership, is applicable to everyone regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, now if nations wish to call homosexual weddings civil partnerships or something else because they do not wish to offend the sanctity of marriage then they are welcome to do so, however I make it clear that Achkaerin does support same sex marriages as do at last check the various religious leaders within her borders.

Article 12.2 is simply an affirmation of the legal status of a same sex marriage or union as outlined within the scope of 12.1 that they be afforded the same legal standing as the traditional understanding of marriage which is the heterosexual one.

12.3 is in simple terms stating the obvious about where legally wedding ceremonies can take place and includes by implication the right of religious institutions to refuse such ceremonies on their premises. While 12.4 clarifies that the parties must give their free and formal consent without influence. However despite all of this it is a liitle clunky so if I may I propose the following as article 12

Quote

Article 12 – Right to Marry

1. Any persons of marriageable age, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, have the right to marry and to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.

2. Parties to same sex unions are entitled to equal rights as those parties to heterosexual marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

3. A matrimonial ceremony may take place in any location licensed or authorised by the state without prejudice, save for ceremonies taking place in or officiated by a religious institution.

4. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses, and where the matrimony is not unduly influenced by a third party.

Now in terms of the issue of same sex couples adopting children, that isn't explicitly covered by the Convention but as is stated in 12.1 a same sex couple would have the right to marry and to found a family. So how does a same sex couple found a family? IVF, surrogate mother, adoption? Now each state has its own rules governing adoption procedures and reasons for refusal and in all honesty I would be seriously worried if the reason for refusing an adoption was that the couple was homosexual.

My other issue is in regards to article 20 which states "The High Contracting Parties agree that, except by special agreement, they will not avail themselves of treaties, conventions or declarations in force between them for the purpose of submitting, by way of petition, a dispute arising out of the interpretation or application of this Convention." No such special agreement exists which means we have no enforcement mechanism to deal with breaches of this treaty nor do we have a body whose responsibility it is to come to a consensus on the interpretation of this treaty. I therefore would to propose that following renegotiating the treaty that we then discuss how we deal with this point."

CGJ · « **Reply #13 on:** March 02, 2018, 08:11:22 PM »

John Lankly stood next. "There are certainly some interesting points in this proposal. I think it's best we start with what we agree on. We would support the amendments to Article 1, we'll tolerate the removal of the word 'democratic' - although we don't believe this is necessary, we'll also tolerate the amendment to Article 15.2.

"In terms of disagreement: we oppose the amendments brought to Articles 12 and 14 by Your Majesty. The amendments are seemingly being brought in to protect the rights of nations, except Article 19 mandates that the contents of the treaty do not restrict any additional rights. In the case of equal pay, it merely entitles individuals to the right to equal pay, if they should choose to earn less...then that is their prerogative. On marriage, article 12 has the potential to make polygamy a universal right. The Dartfordian government does not have a position on this, although we would want it to be subject to a full debate and not considered as a technical amendment.

"I would however, like to fully support Her Royal Highness Princess Serenity in her views on articles 12 and 13. For article 12 we certainly prefer the original wording of the treaty, but are willing to consider our position. We do not support, in any way, the repeal of Article 13."

"We are further generally opposed to the other amendments in this treaty, as we believe that they will undermine the original purpose of the treaty. The right to universal healthcare and education on the basis of merit were key discussion points in Churchill, where we signed the original treaty, and we maintain the position my predecessor took on that occasion. However, we are willing to reconsider this position, and we will await the views of our esteemed colleagues from our allies.

"I would like to present to this family of nations, however, the notion of the implementation of a Protocol to enable the enforcement of the Treaty, as we had originally intended in 2014, by an independent, international court. I would like to hear the views of my esteemed colleagues on such matters."

Beatrice · « **Reply #14 on:** March 02, 2018, 08:17:59 PM »

"I find myself in agreement with my colleagues from Achkaerin and Dartfordia and share the concerns and proposals which have been put forth," Koizumi said in follow-up to Serenity. "In addition I find it concerning that our host finds issue with the concept of equal pay, an issue which has the possibility to impact countless families and individuals alike. While it is clear that the MCUR is due for a review, a fundamental alteration of the rights and principles upon which it is based most certainly raises concerns of regression. I shall be welcome to hearing the reasoning behind such decisions, however, at this time I would not be able to lend my support to the initial proposal as put forth."

Arda Tuluva · « **Reply #15 on:** March 03, 2018, 04:52:13 PM »

First Minister Cormarë Vercatauronámë was the next to speak. She stood and turned to face Lodja’s Queen, “Your Divine Majesty,” she said bowing low to Queen Klara “Your Royal Majesty.” She bowed again, albeit not as low, to King David. “Your Holinesses,” bowing first in order of Precedence in Arda Tuluva to the Head Gothi and then the Pope, “Your Imperial and Royal Highness.” She said to Serenity with another bow. “Your Regal Highness.” She stated to Rokkenjima’s Princess Euphemia. “Honorable representatives, national delegates.” She finished bowing twice more, pivoting slightly to the right then to the left.

“The Arda Tuluvan Empire applauds the efforts and convictions of Her Divine Majesty to amend the Treaty of the Mundus Convention on Universal Rights.” She bowed again to the Lodjan Queen. “For many years Arda Tuluva had shied away from ratifying this treaty do to its language and certain articles that run contrary to the harmony of the rituals and regulations that guide the Empire ever forward.

“It may not be known by some, but Arda Tuluvan state philosophy highly promulgates the notions and the importance of names, definitions, and meaning. Before laws are enacted in the Empire a lengthy process is carried out to formulate the correct and prescribed language in accordance to the harmony of State philosophy and doctrine. It is, therefore, extremely important to the Empire that the words used within this treaty be correct, else the Empire cannot be beholden to a treaty that is in ere.

“Therefore, we propsse the following changes the Mundus Convention on Universal Rights:

“Article 5.1 should be written as ‘No one shall be held in forced slavery or servitude.’”

“Article 7.1 'in a democratic society' should be removed.

“Article 7.2, is a rather interesting case. In Arda Tuluva accused are seen as neither guilty nor innocent. We call this cámimbë, ‘they who stand in between’, would be the best translation. It has been decided by the Presidium that – if – the Empire were to ratify this treaty we would only be beholden to the official Quenya translation of this charter. Therefore, we kindly request that Article 7.2 be officially translated as:

Illi oquotë i ongwëa trosennen nauvar eperúcië cámimbë tenna todistë cáma mácernócatië nórëa sanyërnen ar axaninen.

"The word for innocent, which in the divine tongue is vatomano, has been replaced with cámimbë. Let it be known, that there is no cultural taboo or legal restriction for those who are cámimbë. It is held in balance, it a more philosophical ideal than anything. But, we cannot allow the accused to be presumed completely innocent, it would disrupt the harmony of our entire justice system.”

The Arda Tuluvans had no qualms with the other articles, they were vague enough to allow the State its control. The Empire also was extremely obsessed with defining and the naming of all things; as the state philosophy of Mindarucinism prescribes. Arda Tuluva defines religion as the practice and worship of the faith that aligns with and is in accordance to the harmony of State philosophy and doctrine.

Belief in Arda Tuluva is defined in two ways: (1) an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof, that aligns with and is in accordance to the harmony of State philiopshy and doctrine; and (2) trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something that aligns with and is in accordance to the harmony of State philiopshy and doctrine. Otherwise the belief is untrue and, therefore, not considered belief but a false notion.

“Article 12.1, should state ‘persons of marriageable age’. It is therefore allowed to regulation of how one defined marriage. Persons can be defined as two or more with restriction to whom one can and cannot marry.”

“As in regard to Her Imperial and Royal Majesty’s proposed amendments to Article 12. The wording of the proposed Article 12.2: 'Parties to same sex unions are entitled to equal rights as those parties to heterosexual marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.'. This cannot stand in its current formula. By imposing the words ‘equal rights as’, implies that same-sex unions are considered to be beneath those of opposite-sex couples and thus, only through, this charter does it become elevated. Arda Tuluva has never held taboo against same-sex relations nor imposed laws prohibiting their unions. Though, we understand that many a nation still have strange thoughts on the subject and prohibit the practice.

“Also, each nation defined marriage in different ways. Therefore, instead of adding another section simply amended the first to: Persons of marriageable age, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, have the right to marry, enter into a union, and to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.”

“We certainly agree with Her Imperial and Royal Highness that Article 13 should be reinstated. The Empire finds no reason why this Article has been removed.”

“On Article 14.2, let it be known that the Empire is in favor of maintaining its present wording from the original Charter, however we have no qualms for or against its removal. We have already regulated Equal Pay Laws within the Empire.”

“Let it be known we are in agreement with the amendments made to Article 15. The Empire shall not allow any charter or treaty to impose a teaching curriculum upon Her Sublime Majesty’s subjects that run contrary to the harmony of Arda Tuluva’s state philosophy and doctrine.”

It was a well-known fact that Arda Tuluvans were extremely superstitious people. Almost everyone had a personal astrologer, fortune teller, osteopath, and herbalist. However, the government prescribed that modern medicine must also be taken into account when concerning a person’s wellbeing. “The Arda Tuluvan Presidium would like greater clarification exactly what Article 16.4 means by ‘culturally appropriate care’ and ‘different ways of life.’ If there is an epidemic it shall be treated and will not be encumbered because some think a crystal or prayer will save them.”

Achkaerin · « **Reply #16 on:** March 03, 2018, 10:51:11 PM »

Alarm bells were ringing in Serenity's head again and she was willing to bet it wasn't only in her head that it was happening. Or was it maybe the pins and needles developing in her ankle?

"The principle of article 12.1 is a statement that anyone irrespective or race, gender or sexual orientation is permitted to marry or enter into the equivalent status as defined by national law that's what the currently in force article says. Article 12.2 forms the other half of this in terms of legal status and an affirmation that a same sex marriage or union is regarded in legal terms as the same as that of an opposite sex one. Now I would love to live in a world where that point does not need to be explicitly made but sadly that is not the case.

Now it would seem there is a concerted number of us asking the question of why article 13 was removed, I'm sure we will get an answer but given the narrow scope of the article in a practical sense I fail to see what could prompt it's removal. I also fail to see why we would seek to invite the backlash that such a move would bring."

Serenity paused for a moment gathering her thoughts

"Now as for the proposal in regards to article 7.2 I must declare my adamant opposition. For two reasons first the presumption of innocence that is to say innocent until proven guilty is the single most important principle in Achkaerin's legal system. The presumption means that everyone knows that the accused are considered innocent and that therefore the burden of proof falls on the prosecution. Now to take a position where the accused is presumed as neither guilty or innocent is to my mind to split the burden and that's not a good thing because that seems to suggest that we're getting into the realms of the defence having to prove innocence and that's something that should never have to be proved. Now I'm sure in Arda Tuluva that such a system works fine but this is an international document which nations are going to sign, some are already signatory to the original. The point is that some articles like 12.1 can be adapted to cover all bases the First Minister has given an appropriate wording of that, but something like article 7.2 does not afford us that opportunity it is a very specific clause so our wiggle room is greatly reduced.

The second reason this is opposed is that article 7 of this Convention is also included in the Uppsalla Convention, as is article 4 and article 6. Consequently any amendments to those three articles by proxy amends the Uppsalla Convention, something I would rather we did not get into.

This Convention is the example of what can be achieved when nations come together to try to make the world a better place for everybody without prejudices based on race, gender, faith or sexuality, let's not curtail what's been accomplished, by all means add to it, widen things out, be more inclusive but don't sacrifice the spirit of articles or the spirit of the Convention in doing so let's look at what could be added to the Convention rather than consider what to take out."

Libby · « **Reply #17 on:** March 04, 2018, 04:10:54 PM »

Klara had been scribbling down as things were being said, "My reason for eliminating Article 13 is because in Lodja we do not recognise it is possible to change gender. It is our stance that what genetiles you have do not define your gender, it is what the Goddess saw fit to grace you as upon your birth. Now we also have no issue with someone wishing to change their outward appearence. Article 13 therefore is asking us to recognise something a Lodjain would not view as possible. It would be like asking any of you here present to grant protection to Dragons under the remit of a Wild Mundus Organisation charter." she hoped she'd made herself clear.

"It seems no one has any objection to the removal of the 7 mentions of the word democratic, can I take it then that we're agreed that can be removed?" she looked around the table before continuing, "So in terms of what else has been brought up we now have the suggestion that Article 5 read, " No one shall be held in forced slavery or servitude." Personally I believe this is tidying up that article and do not object to it. As for Article 7 it is all well and good Achkaerin arguing that changing it could potentially undermine their legal premis, but by not doing so undermines Arda Tuluva's, I agree that this is a sound article to have, however its something we must find a compromise on, perhaps the wording could be changed to something like this. "2. It shall be expected that a person's rights are not infringed until found guilty of a crime they are charged with." It is something that will need looking at otherwise once again we stand at a point where cultural imperialism is going to be taking place."

Article 12 was the one that was going to cause concerns, "I personally like the suggestion by Princess Serenity, I also believe the wording of 12.1 should reassure the Ecclesiastical State, that those marrying abroad say and then returning home would be guided by ES law on say adoption. By the same measure it would not stop a couple potentially adopting from another nation. I think this should also put Heyra's mind at ease, after all they can establish their own laws about families."

"Moving onto Arda Tuluva's concerns about Article 16. I suspecut "Culturally appropriate" would for example mean that blood products not be used on say a Jeohovah's Witness, as for different ways of life I suspect this may be a reference to a vegeterian, for example would they be morally happy to accept say a heart valve from a pig? I don't know but this is the kind of situation I think it is trying to clear up, therefore making doctors more aware of the need to consider patients as individuals. I hope this clears things up."

"Now in terms of moving things forward I suggest we go one concern at a time. So far we have had no objections to removing the word "democracy" so unless anyone now gives me a reason why that shouldn't happen can I assume it's gone?" She looked up and down the table, "Following that I would ask does anyone have any obejctions or suggestions to Princess Serenities rewording of Article 12?"

Spoiler: Original Text of 12 • show

Spoiler: Proposed New Text • show

"Once this Article is determined I suggest we move to Article 13 and then 7 as they are likely to be the ones most contencious."

Achkaerin · « **Reply #18 on:** March 04, 2018, 11:42:10 PM »

"The only thing I would suggest in regards to this amendment, and this will likely sound weird considering it is an amendment I proposed" Serenity said "Is adjusting 12.1 to "Persons of marriageable age, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, have the right to marry, enter into a union, and to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.” essentially amending it to this wording, suggested by the Arda Tuluvan First Minister, broadens the interpretation of the article while also retaining it's intent and spirit. It further allows us to avoid getting into the theological debate over the definition of marriage which as I recall was a major hurdle the last time around."

With her point made Serenity glanced at Melinda and then over at her host
"Your Majesty may I be excused for a few moments?" Serenity asked

Norgeras · « **Reply #19 on:** March 05, 2018, 10:15:48 PM »

Robert of Niameck had been sitting silently on the sideline, listening carefully to the debate while leaning holding his walking cane in tight grip. Only as the discussion seems to go back and forth, he decided to slowly get up and adress the dignitaries:

"While i respect the Notion, i do not think we will be able to work out a Solution if we keep on discussing everything at the same Time. It has been clear already there are red lines some of us can not cross, keeping us from signing a declaration that in it's core is good. Why don't we, for now, gather every issue and paragraph Nations wish to amend, or would need to have amended, and then work in smaller groups what exactly amendment we can agree upon. "

The old man coughed holding himself up on his cane: "I see little point in attempting to try and discuss everything at once. We from the Empire of Neu Uburzis can't agree with article thirteen at all, Cosmetic Surgeries just don't change your gender. It is a pretense that our medicine is capable of feats that are but deceit in this regard. And we will not have our legal documents filled with pretense and wishful thinking."

Slowly sitting down again, the old man kept looking around: "Also we can not agree with Article 16. Especially 16.4 as it opens up every door for discrimination by the patients against staff. They should worry about saving life, not if the Doctor is a Man or a Woman. I can only agree with the changes made to Article 2.1, this document wishes to be about universal rights, not about governing into other nations. I also agree with cutting the part of equal pay in 14.1 - our stance is closer to Heyrans here, if you can't fight for better payment, then you don't get it. We have a Minimum Wage, everything above it is something you have to fight for yourself."

Taking a gulp of Water, he continued: "I would prefer the Article Five only claiming Slavery, servitude and forced servitude is an expression so vague it could mean everything and nothing. I can already hear children and fringe Parents whining about compulsory school. When it comes to 12.1, adding /according to laws governing the exercise of these rights/ basically voids the whole paragraph, allowing nations to do whatever they please by bypassing it with national laws."

Coughing again, the old man continued: "As for Article Seven in the Upsala convention, the Elder senates Opinion is that Upsalla should be amended to have it's own articles not depending on a different piece of paper tos tart with, so it is, in our opinion, a concern of fault in upsalla itself that needs not be a concern here. Also article Fifteen, we would also wish to see 15.3 removed in addition. This should be a charter of basic human rights, not one governing into national politics."

Scratching his head Rudolph sipped more water: "I am sure i forgot something but for now i think it's all i have to said. Again, i think it would be preferable if we go through this one Article by one instead of trying to solve everything at the same time."

Achkaerin · « **Reply #20 on:** March 05, 2018, 11:02:33 PM »

"With all due respect sir." Melinda said, with Serenity having excused herself for the moment the Achkaerinese Minister was in the chair for the moment "We are taking this one section at a time, presently discussing article 12 after which we'll move to 13 followed by 7 and then anything else that needs dealing with as Her Majesty indicated." while she'd been speaking she'd been writing a note which when she'd finished it she placed face down on the table and slid it down the table to the Pope. The truth was simple this wasn't going to go anywhere except failure unless moves got made and the Crown Princess's absence from the table for the moment was the signal of her intention to get started making inroads.

Outside Serenity was making sure to deeply inhale the fresh air, she'd been to enough summits like this to know that the hard work went on away from the table she glanced down at her phone when it buzzed - a message from Melinda Neu Uburzi's oppose 13 - Gender, Serenity sighed it was almost irritating that the aspect of 13 that was an issue this time around hadn't been an issue the first time. Still her position was clear enough, she couldn't sign a treaty that sacrificed article 13, to do so was to invite a backlash from a community that included a lot of people she knew. It seemed they'd get 12 as there wasn't any real opposition to it. No Article 13 was going to be the battle, she looked at the water in the fountain trying to collect her thoughts, what was the way forward? She'd done her homework in advance of the meeting as she often did but preparation usually went out of the window when it came to the cut and thrust of the table.

She continued to look at her reflection in the water when she started smiling Gotcha she thought, she had the beginnings of an idea now to deal with the one remaining obstacle and if Melinda had sent the note that would be hopefully dealt with soon enough.

The Young Pope · « **Reply #21 on:** March 05, 2018, 11:11:45 PM »

TYP became utmost curious as soon as note was suddenly in front of him from the Achkaerinese delegation; while most of the guests were pre-occupied with the ongoing discussions that have frankly exhausted his holiness, he quickly took the note from the table and skimm-read it. It seemed as if Princess Serenity wanted to have a word with him out side...Thank God he thought, a great excuse to get some fresh air and relieve some business in the bathroom, with all that protocol one couldn't do as one pleased these days. TYP excused himself from the room and was accompanied by a few GSPT heading first to the bathroom section.

It didn't take a short moment for the Pope to meet Serenity who was admiring the water in the fountain. "It's ok my most loyal servants but you're dismissed...Your highness, I believe that you'd like to have a few words with 'God's' Earthly Representative?" TYP asked in a humorus tone.

Achkaerin · « **Reply #22 on:** March 05, 2018, 11:53:48 PM »

"Amazing what a breath of fresh air and time to think can do to inspire a thought isn't it Your Holiness?" Serenity asked, now becoming unable to hide the beaming almost giggly smile as her brain continued to click together a possible option "Summit's like this there's nothing quite like a break." she paused needing to get serious "If I may put my cards on the table and be candid for a moment, you're a smart enough man to recognize where the fault line is now and you've got enough political understanding to know that there's a group of nations represented in there that can't backtrack. So without some bridge building this seems set up for a failure and collapse on the worst possible point for it to happen. Long story short we're going to need Article 13, now the argument I'm hearing from our hosts is that Gender and Sex are two different things now in my opinion that can be reflected in Article 13. The only unknown is your nations position on that article, I don't know if you have concerns and feel free to tell me what they are but what I'd like to know is this - when the time comes if I table an amendment to 13 that accounts for your concerns if you have any will you support it?"

The Young Pope · « **Reply #23 on:** March 06, 2018, 09:10:10 AM »

Peter sighed as he folded his arms, looking into the unknown and had a long thinking, yet another clause which complicated procedures due to different interpretations. Alas one couldn't think for all eternity, so he took hold of Serenity's hands and looked straight into her eyes.

"Serenity, if I may call you by your first name...The amount of times I've looked up upon your family in Mundus as one of the wisest and most open-minded, partly due to our mutual friend Bishop Deed's discussions at the kitchen table but also the achievements I've seen stemming from the Azurewind name...what we can clearly see now isn't just the risk of complicated bureaucracy...it's the lack of something universal as common and obvious...common sense...Which is why on behalf of the Ecclesiastical State I bestow upon you the privilege and blessings to table an amendment to 13 taking in, as much as possible and doesn't need to be perfect on my account, the Catholic Church's teaching on such a lively subject. I may now be the leader of both ES and the CC, but haven't forgotten my true roots...I shall thus give my support."

It was a matter of time before they both returned to the other delegates, though TYP had the opportunity to ask whether, "it would be possible to have dinner with her highness, the Senator and anyone else who'd like to enjoy, a lovely time of food, drink and salacious topics, if one isn't busy this evening that is? It would be nice to have a dinner with one's own countrymen once in a while..."

BenOfTheIwi · « **Reply #24 on:** March 06, 2018, 11:08:55 AM »

King Piripi's Royal Envoy Taika Sevasi had sat and listened to everything so far. "If I may make an observation, the point made by Her Majesty to begin with about cultural imperialism is a valid one. I look at the list of the original signatory nations and it was formed by nations I would consider to be very liberal. Meanwhile nations such as the Iwi are still tied by many traditions and attitudes, some much more conservative which found even the original MCUR difficult to stomach. That does not mean we go around abusing our citizens far from it. As I look around this table I see three nations that our King recently had various tribes of our nation adopt into their tribe. Our entire society is underpinned by our traditions, why even saying hello in the Iwi has symbolic meaning. He hoped that the Pope, the Achkaerin and Neu Uburzis all understood what he was getting at but he would clearly need to spell it out to the others. "On the grounds of Article 13 for example, our people would have no issue if a man choose to become a woman, or vice versa, but it would carry with it issues, for example tribal chiefdoms pass down the male line, if we are forced to recognise an outward change as being an inward change then that tradition can be changed and that is not something we can tolerate. It is therefore necessary that those who signed the original charter now seek to end the Cultural Imperialism and allow those of us with more conservative cultures to maintain our traditions that have stood us in good stead. It was our shared traditions that allowed our tribes to unite and push the Seleucid from our shores ending some of the worst human rights abuses known to Mundus."

He looked down at his notes, "Now to focus on what Queen Klara has called for which is comments on Article 12, we support its reform. We also broadly speaking think Princess Serenity's amendment is an improvement. However we do have one issue, for a marriage to take place in our society taonga must be paid by the husband to the brides family, think of it as him effectively buying his wife. Should the brides family refuse the taonga then no marriage must take place. In much the same way as the Pope here will ask whether anyone knows of a legal reason as to why a marriage can not take place, a chief or their appointed person officiating a marriage will ask if taonga has been paid. Now if for any reason the marriage fails and a divorce takes place the man receives a refund on his taonga, it is assumed for some reason." he shrugged his shoulders, perhaps a priest back home could tell him. "That a marriage lasts 100 years, the taonga price is divided by 100 and the man receives a refund of the price paid minus a portion for the length of the marriage." He hoped everyone was following his Maori people's explanation. "Now the practice of taonga is not just a religious law in our nation, it is a legal requirement that it be paid, but no price is set that is for the families to determine. Today we see Christian families exchange a symbolic fee of $1 for example. Now assuming we did permit same-sex marriage, how would taonga be handled?" He left the question for a moment, "How upon divorce would it handled? This is a central part of our nations legal system and traditions and sadly incompatible with the current amendments. Now do I think we could get people of The Iwi to support same sex marriage, possibly in time. Would we get the whole of this to pass back home, certainly not. I do therefore have a suggestion."

"This amendment would permit same sex couples all the rights and protections of a legally recognised status without destroying some nations traditions."

Quote from: Article 12 - Right to Legal Unions

1. Any persons of marriageable age, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, have the right to form a Legal Union and to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.

2. Parties to Legal Unions are entitled to equal rights as those parties to heterosexual marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution as prescribed by national law.

3. A legal ceremony may take place in any location licensed or authorised by the state without prejudice, save for ceremonies taking place in or officiated by a religious institution.

4. Legal Unions shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses, and where the matrimony is not unduly influenced by a third party.

The Young Pope · « **Reply #25 on:** March 06, 2018, 01:30:07 PM »

OOC: Decided to include Baltikum.

President Lavaud was present throughout the meeting, although wasn't as lively compared to the offers, only offering petty comments and enjoying the free coffee, however if there was one thing which made Baltikum easily was the matter of fact that in virtually all issues, there was a neutral stance on all of them. Lavaud simply was there to represent Baltikum and frankly didn't care too much as long as everyone involved agreed on what clauses are to remain and what ought to be changed. Sitting between the Pope and another official, he nonetheless listened eagerly to what everyone had to say.

Achkaerin · « **Reply #26 on:** March 09, 2018, 01:30:58 PM »

Serenity's head dropped, she actually felt like banging it against the table, they'd had this sewn up hadn't they? An amended article 12 that accounted for everyone around the room. She pinched herself, no she wasn't dreaming stay calm and don't show the frustration she mentally told herself, she let out a sigh.

"While I take the point made by the Envoy of the Iwi, I believe that their proposed amendment goes way too far the other way. Under the current charter article 12 is the right to marry, it states that everyone has the right to marry regardless of race, gender and sexual orientation. Quite rightly as I've previously stated this has come to symbolize a declaration of acceptance and recognition for same sex marriage in various nations. Now whatever agreement is reached here is going to be naturally released to the public, it will be compared to the Charter that exists and it will be judged by a whole lot of people who have a vested interest in this." she paused for a moment "Now if we remove the word and any notion of marry from article 12 it is going to be read as a U-turn and we will be accused of backtracking because it will appear that we have decided that the right to marry is no longer such. It is not necessary to invite that and I see no value in doing so.

However that does not change the matter at hand that we must account in this article for everyone, it must be worded in such a way that it is acceptable to those here and those who have vested interests who are not present, without offending anyone whether that be a nation, an individual or a group of society to cause that offense is to see this document fly in the face of the very principles and intent that it stands for. I don't like the idea of diluting Article 12 to the point where we lose the spirit of the article in the translation, so let me offer the following."

Quote

Article 12 - Right to Legal Unions (Right to Marry)

1. Any persons of marriageable age, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, have the right to form a Legal Union and to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.

2. A Legal Union may for the purposes of this document include the following within its definition, the legal status of each shall be subject to the national laws of signatory states:
(a) Heterosexual Marriage
(b) Homosexual (same sex) Marriage
(c) Civil Partnerships

3. Parties to Legal Unions are entitled to equal rights as those parties to heterosexual marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution as prescribed by national law.

4. A Wedding ceremony may take place in any location licensed or authorised by the state without prejudice, save for ceremonies taking place in or officiated by a religious institution.

5. Legal Unions shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses, and where the matrimony is not unduly influenced by a third party.

Norgeras · « **Reply #27 on:** March 11, 2018, 08:48:55 PM »

Robert nodded slowly towards the Iwi's spokeswoman. There was a lot more work to be done on this Paper, but he did like the Approach.

"We might have to change some of our own Law's considering up until now the Senates picked the Emperor's Spouse. But for now i think it is at least worthy of attempting to Discuss it. Even so i would Prefer to just cut the mention of Homosexual Unions for now as well. While we do not Limit them ourselves, i would argue they are hardly a basic right. This whole Paper should be about making it possible for as many Nations to sign it, not push our believes on them. There is another oddity i noticed, and that i would offer as an exchange. The whole Treaty doesn't mention that Sexuality itself is Protected. So i would suggest as this Treaty puts the Horse in front of the Cart, we first add a new Part to Paragraph 8:

8.3 Consensual Acts of Sexuality between Humans of marriageable Age in Privacy are protected from persecution, unless the Life or the Health of the Involved is endangered.

I think trading protection for Homosexuality itself in for it's removal from 12 would be something agreeable. Also this wording would allow Nations to go further if they wish so for themselves."

Achkaerin · « **Reply #28 on:** March 11, 2018, 10:45:10 PM »

Serenity shook her head this was getting into the realms of frustration now wasn't it?

"This is the Mundus Convention of Universal Rights." she said looking straight at Robert "Therefore all the rights included in this document subject to the national laws of the states apply to everyone and must be stated as such. If a heterosexual female such as myself has the right to marry, which is a legal union under this article, then my lesbian cousin has the same right that is what universal means. Or would you like me to get her on the phone so you can tell her that you're proposing cutting the acknowledgement of that right from this treaty?

Article 12 at it's core is stating that every person whether they be the lowest of the low or the highest of the high has the right to 'marry' whomever they wish without external pressure whether that's a heterosexual relationship or a homosexual relationship makes absolutely no difference. Marriage is not founded upon the gender of the parties but upon the feelings of the parties towards each other. It is a right let's make no mistake about that, but we need to be very careful before we start raising obstacles as a reason to oppose it's inclusion because the minute no not even the minute the second we do that we alienate a heck of a lot of people by denying them this recognition in that we end up unwittingly creating a sort of segregation it either applies to everyone or no one. Tempering the articles of the treaty with a healthy respect for the national laws of the signatory states is one thing but what our friend from Neu Uburzi's proposes is another - to cut homosexual unions would be to create a two tiered human rights element to this declaration which will forever taint it.

So far no one has made a credible argument to dramatically change the spirit or intent of article 12, the wording of the Iwi proposal is acceptable I simply propose the new article 12.2 is included as a clarification point, the safeguarded nature of the new 12.2 also means that what falls within the limits of a legal union is determined by each signatory state as stated while providing the reference list of what can be considered such a union. This way we allow the maximum number of nations to sign it and no belief is forced on anyone as it is permissible for a state that doesn't recognize same sex marriage to say "No" as the definition of what is included within the definition of a Legal Union is left to each state, while also satisfying the community that has a vested interest in this article."

Serenity paused, calming her anger as best she could, she took a sip of her drink

"As for the proposed addition to article eight, if it's something people want to discuss then we can add it to the list but I would be minded to suggest that such an amendment is unnecessary as it duplicates the purpose of article 8.1 which states "Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence." that by definition includes their sexuality and sexual activity. Therefore homosexuality is already protected and as no one has suggested the removal of article 8 it will continue to be protected. Article 12 is about the right to marry or form a partnership with another person with the intent of spending the rest of your life with them and to have a family with them, some of that does overlap with Article 8 but crucially the actual questions of "Can a heterosexual marry?" and "Can a homosexual marry?" are not covered by article 8 and must therefore be covered by article 12, to not acknowledge it is to create a mess. What is presented in terms of my latest amendment is something that should be acceptable to every nation here on all the levels it needs to be."

Libby · « **Reply #29 on:** March 15, 2018, 10:02:24 PM »

Klara stood once more, "Please may we stick to one Article at a time, there is the current proposal that we redraft Article 12 to read as follows." She took a note of Lord Besarian who had been sat next to her scribbling away frantically as people had been talking, Klara gave him a simple nod of thanks before taking a breath and reading it word for word."

Quote from: Article 12 - Right to Legal Unions (Right to Marry)

1. Any persons of marriageable age, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, have the right to form a Legal Union and to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.

2. A Legal Union may for the purposes of this document include the following within its definition, the legal status of each shall be subject to the national laws of signatory states:
(a) Heterosexual Marriage
(b) Homosexual (same sex) Marriage
(c) Civil Partnerships

3. Parties to Legal Unions are entitled to equal rights as those parties to heterosexual marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution as prescribed by national law.

4. A Wedding ceremony may take place in any location licensed or authorised by the state without prejudice, save for ceremonies taking place in or officiated by a religious institution.

5. Legal Unions shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses, and where the matrimony is not unduly influenced by a third party.

"I propose we break for twenty minutes to allow anyone neccessary to make the needed phone calls home if they must. Then we shall return and vote as to whether we shall accept or decline this amendment." Klara shut her folder and without a word headed for the door followed by Lady Jasmina who flung the door open for the Queen who before she left turned once more, "Please feel free to enjoy the grounds, the refreshments and the like, I personally shall go enjoy the view over the sea." and with that she disappeared to the rear patio of the villa and sat enjoying a glass of orange juice.

OOC- In the interest of keeping this moving I'm giving people until Monday 10pm UK time to do any RPing of backstairs deals, talks etc, and then vote.


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