Proposal for a Constitutional Amendment

[Tytor]

In light of the ongoing controversy being pursued by some members of this community in regard to appointments to the Order of the Pen, and in light of certain shortcomings I feel that the organization has, I am proposing the following amendment to the 2022 Constitution.  As I am ignorant of any officially required format, I will simply list my proposed changes and additions below in bold:

1. Under "The Chancellery", section i) shall be amended as follows: "Inducting (and removing when inactive or when otherwise advised) members of the Order of the Pen upon instruction of the Order."

2. Under "Order of the Pen", the current paragraph shall be amended as follows: "- this is a non authority role, it is available to all players and is granted for contribution to Roleplay, Gameplay, and/or regional government.  It is formally awarded and revoked by the Grand Chancellor on the instruction of existing members of this order."

3. Under "Order of the Pen", the following paragraphs shall be added after the present one (as amended):

"- Instruction by the Order of the Pen shall be considered legitimate if (a) a proposal for induction of new members or revocation of existing titles is presented to the general membership of the Order of the Pen, (b) at least seven (7) days elapse for debate thereof by the general membership of the Order of the Pen, (c) at least two (2) days elapse for vote by the general membership of the Order of the Pen and a majority of voters approve the instruction, and (d) formal notice of the vote is delivered in writing by a chosen representative of the Order of the Pen to the office of the Grand Chancellor.

"- The Order of the Pen shall have leave to govern its own internal affairs, aside from the aforementioned process for inductions or expulsions, including leadership, oaths of office, and any other procedures or regulations the Order of the Pen shall determine is necessary.

"- All individuals who hold titles of nobility at the time that this article comes into effect shall be inducted automatically into the Order of the Pen, without further action being necessary either on their part or on the part of the Grand Chancellor.  In the event that the Order of the Pen finds itself without active membership, as determined by the Grand Chancellor and confirmed by the Lord Chief Justice, the Grand Chancellor shall be empowered to make any inductions as they consider necessary, without being required to follow the process herein indicated for instruction by the Order of the Pen.  This article shall be considered to apply retroactively to any inductions performed by the Grand Chancellor between the approval of the constitution and the adoption of this amendment."

I hope that these measures may be found acceptable and that we can stop with these attempts to tear the Independent Order apart over petty grievances.

[RobertAgira]

I agree broadly that this will solve the current issue.

I would however make one change. My understanding is that the Order of the Pen was going to specifically be used as a reward for RP. It would therefore be parallel to nobility unless I've missed something. So for example if the region ever became active in Gameplay again someone could be given a title of nobility for that whereas someone who wrote consistently great RP would be in the Order of the Pen. 

[Tytor]

I agree broadly that this will solve the current issue.

I would however make one change. My understanding is that the Order of the Pen was going to specifically be used as a reward for RP. It would therefore be parallel to nobility unless I've missed something. So for example if the region ever became active in Gameplay again someone could be given a title of nobility for that whereas someone who wrote consistently great RP would be in the Order of the Pen. 

That seems to be a subject of some debate, yes.  I know Nova's of the opinion that the Order of the Pen was meant to replace the nobility, and you're not the first person to express the opinion that the two were meant to exist in parallel.  However, the nobility always had place for RP, gameplay, and government all, so it seems a little silly to merely split one of those off into its own thing.  Personally, I'm taking the position that since the nobility was never meant to be a position of power, the Order of the Pen is what it was meant to be.  Add to that the fact that there is no reference to the nobility in the new constitution (as well as the fact that the nobility masking here on the forum has been renamed), and I feel it makes better sense just to combine the two into the new organization rather than complicating things by making then separate.

Bis on RobertAgira's comment. Even if the last paragraph don't add anything but bureaucracy and is futile since such shall never happen. Except section i) under Chancellory, since that basically removes any authority the Order of the Pen has, meaning that basically it's the Chancellor appointing again members of the Order of the Pen, so ultimately changing nothing and removing a part of the constitutional reform.

Clarification also: won't solve the current issue in any manners. Since there were already nobles, and even with the process getting clarified well Beatrice decided alone as Chancellor.

I don't think you actually read the last paragraph, since it in no way adds bureaucracy.  All it does is fix the issue whereby the Grand Chancellor is required to seek instruction from an organization which may not have any members able to instruct them.  Also, the Chancellory's section i) is not *new*, merely *amended*, and there only to bring it into alignment with the later inclusion allowing the Order of the Pen to vote to expel existing members.

As for your evident determination not to let the issue rest, well, I'm sorry, but the constitution didn't originally include the nobility in the Order of the Pen.  You and I aren't technically members of it yet.  Now, you need to recognize that folks are trying to fix the issue you've brought to our attention.  Continuing to be combative doesn't help anything.

[RobertAgira]

If we're saying the Order of the Pen is simply replacing the nobility then it seems pointless doing it. We're just getting back to the same issue we had that Altona pulled up on but giving it a fancy name. If we're looking at rewarding things other than RP, which at the moment we don't do anything other than, then perhaps we need three orders, much how the UK has MBE,OBE etc. We could have a seperaate Order for each of the three bits, Government, Gameplay, RP and then in some ways this could spur some on to try and become members of all three and in a way create more activity in the region beyond RP. Just throwing that out there.

[Achkaerin]

My suggestion as far as the Order of the Pen's purpose would be to keep it purely for RP reward purposes. If we do get back to Gameplay or NS stuff then a further amendment can be made to create other such order's.

[Altona]

It was Ffion who suggested the Orders idea.

2) Reward people with something other than a title that implies authority. Most NS regions have governments, mods, admins call them what you want and more often than not they have fancy titles. Don't mask them as nobles create two "Orders" have something like Order of the Pen for people who have contributed good RP stuff and Order of the Scroll for people who have contributed to running the region. You could even have letters after user names like we go with the M.B.E etc in the UK. This could see a whole list of things. So maybe you write your first really engaging open RP you get your first award, then when you've a track record like people such as Markus you get knighted. This means we can still give recognition but when someone first joins they don't assume the leadership are the people in purple. I reckon you've about 30 mins to determine whether someone actually stays with the region or not in terms of interaction and had it not been for Dave or Nova I'd have left by now.

Presently we're getting better at flagging up things we're not happy with or that can be improved but both sides of this are not so great at suggesting ways forward. It took a list of suggestions for any of this to start rolling nearly 60 days ago.

In terms of this getting sorted I think everthing in Tytors original suggestion is a good idea except the Order of the Pen just becoming the Nobility in a new dress, thats one of the issues many of us had from the outset. As for how its original members were selected I agree that it could have been handled better and probably didn't fulfil what the constitution says and as knee jerk quick reactions were another concern that started this I'm worried that its happened. This time however I think the fact we all missed the glaringly obvious (in hindsight) issue with the initial induction process can be sorted quickly.

So I suggest two things. The first is that unless someone raises an objection to Beatrice's proposed members for the Order then by say Monday they get inducted. Following that we amend the constitution as Tytor suggested but keep the Order for RP.

Moving forward though I would urge a lot less rapid decision making when its not essential.

[Achkaerin]

1. Under "The Chancellery", section i) shall be amended as follows: "Inducting (and removing when inactive or when otherwise advised) members of the Order of the Pen upon instruction of the Order."

2. Under "Order of the Pen", the current paragraph shall be amended as follows: "- this is a non authority role, it is available to all players and is granted for contribution to Roleplay, Gameplay, and/or regional government.  It is formally awarded and revoked by the Grand Chancellor on the instruction of existing members of this order."

3. Under "Order of the Pen", the following paragraphs shall be added after the present one (as amended):

"- Instruction by the Order of the Pen shall be considered legitimate if (a) a proposal for induction of new members or revocation of existing titles is presented to the general membership of the Order of the Pen, (b) at least seven (7) days elapse for debate thereof by the general membership of the Order of the Pen, (c) at least two (2) days elapse for vote by the general membership of the Order of the Pen and a majority of voters approve the instruction, and (d) formal notice of the vote is delivered in writing by a chosen representative of the Order of the Pen to the office of the Grand Chancellor.

"- The Order of the Pen shall have leave to govern its own internal affairs, aside from the aforementioned process for inductions or expulsions, including leadership, oaths of office, and any other procedures or regulations the Order of the Pen shall determine is necessary.

"- All individuals who hold titles of nobility, that were awarded for Roleplay Contribution, at the time that this article comes into effect shall be inducted automatically into the Order of the Pen, without further action being necessary either on their part or on the part of the Grand Chancellor.  In the event that the Order of the Pen finds itself without active membership, as determined by the Grand Chancellor and confirmed by the Lord Chief Justice, the Grand Chancellor shall be empowered to make any inductions as they consider necessary, without being required to follow the process herein indicated for instruction by the Order of the Pen.  This article shall be considered to apply retroactively to any inductions performed by the Grand Chancellor between the approval of the constitution and the adoption of this amendment.

So if I'm understanding correctly the above is the suggested idea? The yellow is a clarification point to make it clear that there's an RP focus.

[Altona]

I'd be happy with what Achkaerin has just posted

[Beatrice]

I'm pleased with the work and dedication Tytor and Achkaerin have taken to bring us closer to a resolution while tightening up areas which were previously vague. I look forward to the passage of this Amendment and our continued progress forward.

[Markus]

I'd be happy with what Achkaerin has just posted

This is also true for me.

[Markus]

@Altona: in addition to the violation, and for going on the content, I've already raised my issues with the list provided by Beatrice.
Equally, for Tytor's proposal, I suspect the 7 days debate period before the 2 days vote part is open as per the constitution.

@Tytor: I personally didn't thought that Nobility = Order of the Pen, thought there'd be a restart, which would have been fair and at first that's how I interpreted Beatrice's list. However I found out that it wasn't the case and that's where it created me a massive issue. I find it most unfortunate that in your proposal you just basically want to render legal an act which was illegal. Shows the lack of progress in maturity our region have yet to accomplish, by just first of all acknowledging mistake and apologies -which still both haven't been done- and then we can move.

Since this new amendment attempts to fix the issue which you brought to our attention it can be interpreted as an acknowledgement of the mistake. We all missed the whole part about how to abolish the Nobility and to specify how the Order inducts members.

That being said, would you be willing to meet us half way and accept the proposed amendment as a compromise solution?

[CGJ]

My concern with this amendment is not so much substance, but that the Order of the Pen would take up a disproportionate amount of the constitution.

So do we amend the Constitution to just add ‘as defined by X’ and have a second Act (or whatever we call them) that covers the Order of the Pen?

My only other point here is: I would question the mental effort here caused by what is, at best, a technical error resulting from unclear legislation that was made in good faith.

[Beatrice]

First of all I want to thanks Beatrice for closing that thread without ever responding to address the concerns and the points I brought, true exchange of ideas and respect of the constitution. /s You are truly ready to become a politician.

I have shared my views on your concerns and points, it's just that I've stated I disagree with them. I'm not going to apologize for violating the Constitution when, in the view of multiple people, I haven't violated it. That's essentially what Nova's argument boils down to, I "violated" the Constitution and as such must be held to account, but a violation has not occurred as explained by quite a few people now. As such I would ask Nova to join the rest of us where we are at on this, and work with us toward placing this period of time behind the region and not artificially keeping us in a time of crisis.

[Achkaerin]

Enough.

The argument has been heard Nova and has been dismissed, there was no violation of the Constitution, you have not proven it at all, you have failed to establish a case based on the factual situation that the proposed amendment addresses and your conduct in this matter has become increasingly hostile to the point of harassment, it stops now.

[KrisNord]

I believe there are people who have interpreted the constitution that there was a violation while others don't. We're not reaching a compromise. We're now in a position where we need to just figure out the best solution moving forward. Maybe once this is sorted we perhaps do need to look at what we do when a group of people think a mistake in interpreting the constitution has taken place. Now though ain't the time. Sort one problem at a time. Currently the problem is what do we do about the Order of the Pen.

[Tytor]

There's been a lot of good feedback given in this thread so far, in between the endless recriminations.  I'll take a closer look and see if I can consolidate the suggestions that have been made later, when I have a bit more time.  In the meantime, one possible solution I've thought of (inspired by C's note that we're gearing up to devote an inordinate amount of space to the OotP) is to remove it from the constitution entirely, and replace it with a clause allowing the Grand Chancellor to simply establish whatever orders are found necessary, with maybe a few ground rules.  At that point, B could reestablish the OotP from scratch and this whole dispute could be laid to rest.  If, of course, this isn't preferable, I'll go ahead and tweak the existing amendment proposal anyway.

In the interim, I'd greatly appreciate it if certain of us would stop acting as if our complaints are divine law and start working with the rest of the community.  Stop reposting your complaints over and over again; you've crossed the line into spam, in my opinion, and you're literally the only person who cares deeply enough about your grievances to insist that every comma be responded to.  The rest of us are trying to develop a workable solution; surely you've noticed that literally no one has joined your anti-Beatrice crusade.

[Achkaerin]

I think we have two options here:

Option 1) Taking this as the amendment

Option 2) reducing the amendment to read:
1. Under "The Chancellery", section i) shall be amended as follows: "Inducting (and removing when inactive or when otherwise advised) members of Orders upon instruction of that Order."

2. Under "Order of the Pen", the current paragraph shall be amended as follows: "- this is a non authority role, it is available to all players and is granted for contribution to Roleplay.  It is formally awarded and revoked by the Grand Chancellor following the procedures of the order."

3. Under Miscellaneous add -  In the event that an Order finds itself without active membership, as determined by the Grand Chancellor and confirmed by the Lord Chief Justice, the Grand Chancellor shall be empowered to make any inductions as they consider necessary, without being required to follow the process  indicated for instruction by that Order.

This second option future proofs Constitutional provisions and maintains the intent of the Constitution to explain what all the roles are without getting too explanatory. But both methods accomplish the same purpose, I do think option one may work better but upon enactment part of it does become redundant, so perhaps a more simple approach works

In terms of what actually happens with the Order itself as it has been correctly argued by Altona and Tytor that the intent and practice have not lined up in this instance my suggestion would be that Beatrice's initial appointments to the Order of the Pen be reformatted to make clear the legal authority being used in this instance - this can be done quicker than the amendment process.

[Markus]

If by reformatted you mean Beatrice editing her initial post with the nominations perhaps she can also add the names of the nobles who supported the nominations and thus perhaps Nova would find it acceptable.

[Markus]

+1. So that a discussion around such can be taken to edit and add those missing who dearly deserved it, versus those which wouldn't yet.

Let me see if I understood correctly. You would be fine with Beatrice editing that initial Order of the Pen post to make the following changes:

1. Remove Kermah and Rayyu. Add Parali.
2. Add to the text something like "the following players are inducted following deliberations with the (ex) nobles: Ach, Tytor, Nova, Cool etc"

Is that correct?

[Markus]

@ All: Would anyone object to Beatrice editing her initial post and making the following corrections:

1. Remove Kermah and Rayyu. Add Parali and Lijiang.
2. Add to the text something like "the following players are inducted following deliberations with the (ex) nobles: Ach, Tytor, Nova, Cool, Libby (?), NordicPeoples (?)."

Please note that this is in no way a disagreement over the talent of Kermah and Rayyu but rather postponing the induction until the Order of the Pen discuses and approves a set of minimum requirements for new members (like minimum number of posts etc).

[Achkaerin]

That's not what I mean by "reformatting" and given that the sole consideration is RP contribution which does not include time in region, minimum post count etc. quibbling over who's on the initial list isn't the issue here if people want other members inducted that can be dealt with by the Order once it's established.

This whole situation started because we missed something when the Constitution was drafted which is simply put as this (as pointed out by Tytor and Altona) - how does the GC induct members into the Order of the Pen when the the Order of the Pen has no members to instruct? What I think solves this is the Peerage Act section 11 of which states "The Grand Chancellor is authorized to create and maintain orders of chivalry. All appointments to any order of chivalry, and removals from the same, shall be at the discretion of the Grand Chancellor." It could easily be argued that the Order of the Pen is such an Order or at least analogous to such an Order. So we could say Beatrice as GC can establish the Order of the Pen, that at least gets us off  our initial problem.

So if we were reformatting here's what could happen:

1) Beatrice's initial post be amended to read:

THE ORDER OF THE PEN
OF THE INDEPENDENT ORDER

The Grand Chancellor formally establishes the Order of the Pen as an Order of Chivalry, this shall be awarded for members Roleplay quality and Roleplay Contribution, All individuals who hold titles of nobility, that were awarded for Roleplay Contribution, shall be inducted automatically into the Order of the Pen. The following Independent Nations are hereby recognized for the continued quality of their RP, and are thus inducted as Members of the Order of the Pen:

Altona
Cass
Markus
Daito
Heimney
RobertAgria
Paracambi
Kermah
Rayyu

We all look forward to reading and engaging with excellent RP, and I to recognizing yet more people as time goes by. Thank you all for your contributions to our region, to sharing your stories with us, and may we all continue to build together.

I haven't put the nine nobles that this would effect on by name but for the record those nine are - Beatrice, Dave, myself, Tytor, Kris, Cool, Nova, Libby Dijel.

2) The Proposed Legislation here read:

Amendment to the Constitution

1. Under "The Chancellery", section i) shall be amended as follows: "Inducting (and removing when inactive or when otherwise advised) members of Orders according to the procedures of the Orders."

2. Under "Order of the Pen", the current paragraph shall be amended as follows: "- this is a non authority role, it is available to all players and is granted for contribution to Roleplay.  It is formally awarded and revoked by the Grand Chancellor following the procedures of the order."

3. Under Miscellaneous add -  In the event that an Order finds itself without active membership, as determined by the Grand Chancellor and confirmed by the Lord Chief Justice, the Grand Chancellor shall be empowered to make any inductions as they consider necessary, without being required to follow the process  indicated for instruction by that Order.

Amendment to the Peerage Act (2013

1. Section 11 to now read - The Grand Chancellor is authorized to create and maintain orders of chivalry. All appointments to any order of chivalry, and removals from the same, shall be at the discretion of the Grand Chancellor unless the procedures of an Order dictate otherwise.

[Beatrice]

This seems to be a well rounded solution to the present impasse and should address the concerns of all involved. I'll be happy to put it into motion once we've received some more feedback.

[Achkaerin]

What Markus proposed has been addressed simply by using the Peerage Act (point 2).

Point 1 is a little bit of an issue - the sole criteria for induction into the order of the pen is "Roleplay contribution" as far as I am concerned everyone on that list has earned it, I don't see any reason to remove people from it. If your issue is who isn't on this list, then have the patience to wait for Beatrice to (as per the first point of my proposal) establish the Order of the Pen which she can do under existing law and then you can make as many recommendations for induction as you like. She may even agree to the additions but there's no existing reason to remove the two  people indicated.

[Beatrice]

Updated post regarding the Order of the Pen.

I am not removing people from the proposed list as their contributions and continued quality are evident to all. Nothing prevents us from recognizing these newer members alongside older members.

[Beatrice]

I and others presented their points and positions and resolved the matter of the Order of the Pen. Let's not reignite arguments.