Author Topic: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN  (Read 6004 times)

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Offline Daitō

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2023, 09:40:25 PM »
   Sadazane had been listening to the conversation, finding that he agreed on many things and disagreed on others. In particular, like both Serena and Graziano, he didn't support a total removal of tariffs, as it had the potential to harm several Daitōjin industries ranging from agriculture and petroleum extraction to chemical production and automobile manufacturing, even if it would further open up new markets. That being the case, however, he acknowledged that a that such a removal was not even in the cards, as the expressed goal of this summit was the establishment of a Free Trade Area, not a customs union like the Empress and Consul seemed to think.
   "While I believe that the Empire of Daitō would not benefit from a total removal of tariffs, I fail to see why such a notion is even being contemplated. After all, to my knowledge, there has not been any indication that this Association that has been proposed is one that will constitute a customs union. Yes, our host mentioned the creation of a Free Trade Area as the primary goal of this summit, which would entail a reduction in tariffs between those nations which are party to the agreement, but it is then a significant leap to presume that it would result in that." He paused. "This being the case, however, I am willing to support the proposal as it stands."

   "Now, as for this 'Science Consortium', while I would support its establishment, I must admit I have similar concerns to those shared by the Consul, at least on the second part. I will, however, note that forcing countries to buy into the consortium in such a fashion will only give a prospective future member of this association cause to ignore it. Perhaps instead of increasing the amount needed to join the consortium, the governments which are party to it will pledge to pay a set percentage of their GDP into it per year, at least until the consortium can be self-sufficient?"

Offline Viljandi

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2023, 10:55:21 PM »
Empress Tanya Ulisi Ydrakov I listened carefully. But then contributed again."Customs union, free trade area, it doesn't matter to us. I will admit it. Skalvia unfortunately thanks to the mismanagement of my father is not as developed as I would like it to be. I mean on the east coast of the Strait of Shaw and the east coast on the Sea of Alucard is very well developed everywhere else in the country is uncertain. You have modern towns and cities, but also you have entire settlements where they live in the early 20th century, and initialising a war with a more developed state where we lost territory back in 1992 didn't help. However we are on our way with normalising relations ith our old enemenies with the Union of Vyn;landia & the Balthnian Republics. So that issue will be buttoned up, as for our economy, well we have enough reach to effortllllllllessly transport goods to the states that share a coast with the Straits of Shaw to the East Ardia states on the coast on the Sea of Alucard so shipping is not a problem. due to our geography, so the level of regional economic integration is not a concern for us...At least in however my at the moment at most we would be comfortable agreeing to is a customs union. However catering to other nations unique needs is also an option. A free trade area is probably best for now. and if needed other discussions of further integration can come later. As for the science consortium, well I have no reason to oppose that. Skalvia being a huge market for energy with our immense nautral gas reserves would like to co-operate in the area of biofuels and other fields of renewable energy. I will make a suggestion however that we invite the UVBR in that area, they may be our former enemies, but they are very adept in the fields of Computer Science, biotech and many fields of engineering, many Skalvian students study at their universities in those fields."

Offline Beatrice

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2023, 11:44:00 PM »
"I am in support of a free trade area, as well as a progressive approach to the Science Consortium," the Empress would respond.

Beatrice Anselmo
Grand Chancellor of the Independent Order
Empress of the First Empire of Rokkenjima

Factbook of the First Empire of Rokkenjima - Kingdom of Clysperis

Offline Achkaerin

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2023, 12:25:03 AM »
"There's an awful lot of dancing around things going on here" Xiaoling said slowly "To some extent this goes all the way back to Empress Serena's point about trust. The bread and butter to treaties across Mundus are generally trade, diplomacy and travel all are leaps of trust and some are more difficult, especially when you go multilateral as this organisation would. Something like easing travel restrictions is usually accomplished by agreeing to what the limitations on travel are, an exchange of embassies tends to be accompanied by responsibilities, all of which have in the grand scheme of things minimal impacts." she took a breath "Trade is a level or two higher than that. We're all in the world of politics and whatever we agree here ultimately will have to be ratified back home, and the Consul and Empress Serena are correct that becomes significantly harder to get through back home when we don't have the safeguards to protect our own industries, decreasing tariffs to a universal rate between us is a fair compromise especially given how it has been suggested, it creates the market and establishes a rate that is actually needed otherwise why even have the discussion? the actual mechanism proposed is somewhat of a variation on a provision found in the Network of Crowns. But let's be clear wide open trade is a significant number of steps down the track from where we are right now. The proposed science consortium is a great idea and is supported, however I share the concerns raised, I do think there has to be a buy in but we'd have to maybe fix the rate to either historic contributions of a member over a set time or just have a flat rate that must be put in."

Xiaoling took a breath "Now the big challenge of those mentioned is going to be in the defence area but we'll deal with that when we get there. The point is and this will ring true throughout these talks - some of us know each other better than we know others but what we agree must reflect the whole of the meeting, if this is to work then everyone must be able to sell this back home. The art of diplomacy in moments like this is not necessarily about finding the ideal, or the popular view but the compromise view that gets everyone something they can live with."

Offline Aosta

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2023, 02:00:51 PM »
Serena found herself trying not to look at Empress Tanya as she spoke, each of the nations had problems, each of the nations had to overcome disparities in development, perhaps Gowu and Rokkenjima excepted. "I'd remind Empress Tanya there has long existed a mechanism to transport goods across Albion. The Aosta-Lodjain high speed railway has been in existence well over a year and through the mechanisms of the Council of Albion and the Treaty of Unified Nations of the Alucard (TUNA) we've been able to put in place a whole host of arrangements. So please lets be clear I will not bring our Empire into any agreement that means goods enter our nation with no controls or no tariffs. I would be open to a process of streamlined entry for goods and lower tariffs but not a total removal. As for things like defence I will not put Imperial Forces into a situation where we are bound to potentially send them to shed blood because of the actions of others in this room. While we are all from lands bordering the same ocean there is little else to bind us as our friend from Gowu has outlined. For now I would like to table this as a section of the agreement we are looking to make."

Quote from: Proposal

In order to effect more prosperous trading oppurtunities the nations signed as members of the ADSN agree to the following measures.

1. Any export to a member nations shall be accompanied by a declaration that the export abides by all local laws. To ensure compliance the receiving nation may carry out any non-destructive test on any product arriving at their nation. Any product deemed to be not incompliance with local laws or not accompanied by a decleration shall see a fine of non more than 5 times the value of the consignment paid by the exporter.

2. On the anniversary of the signing of this document each member nation shall produce a list of tariffs to be paid by all member nations. Those tariffs may be set on any goods or items the nation wish. The tariffs set by each nation must be at a level lower than for any nation with which they do not have a current trade agreement with.

3. This agreement does not prevent member nations making their own trade agreements.

4. Any item with a value of less than $1million exported to a nation for temporary use shall be permitted to enter tariff free so long as it is for a period of less than 30 days.

"I believe this allows us each to protect the sectors of industry we need to protect but helps trade, I also believe the temporary entry clause allows us to carry out exhibitions and showcases with ease." 

Offline Abertone

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2023, 09:27:36 AM »
Graziano looked at the suggestion for Empress Serena, while he believed Aosta and Abertone could end up competing for several of the same markets he also believed they shared some similarities. Perhaps he should arrange for his cousin to go visit, although he wasn't sure Serena may appreciate that. He looked over her suggestion once more and then spoke.

"I like the basis of the Empresses proposals. I would however like to add a 5th point if I may. I would like it said that "ADSN nations would agree to allow operations by businesses from other ADSN nations on condition that those businesses operate following local laws concerning taxation, employment, health and safety and environmental matters." Our own nation has some rather innovative micro-finance programmes run by respected businesses and I think they could provide oppurtunities within your nations as well as helping these micro-finance businesses continue being successful thus creating what I would hope would be a cycle of prosperity. I think Empress Serena's proposal is likely to help the large businesses like Abstergo more than perhaps smaller businesses and my proposal for article 5 would perhaps allow some smaller niche markets to expand too. I also support what she says on the matter of defence.  With the exception of Gowu and Rokkenjima the ties between those here in this room are woefully absent. Defence should be off the table beyond perhaps sharing intelligence on things such as piracy and terrorism. This body will then give us ways to closer co-operate in other areas, bring about deeper ties and then the mechanism of the annual foreign minister meetings can see defence perhaps added at a later date."

His talk over he jotted down a note and handed it to one of his aides who delivered it to Empress Serena. "I believe our nations see many things the same way. I would very much like to visit Aosta to discuss these more deeply if you would permit."

Offline Viljandi

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2023, 12:19:09 PM »
Empress Ydrakov thought she would rephrase "Empress Serena, perhaps you misunderstood me. I'm basically saying that we are flexible. I'm not asking or forcing anyone here to give up protections. Thats not my goal. I'm saying Skalvia is comfortable of any level of regional intergration that nations here are comfortable with, with the limit of being a customs union. As for your existing agreement and transportation mechanism, well that of no concern to us...So long as that is clear. Then fine. As for your proposal, well I see nothing that we would have an issue with. As for military matters Skalvia has no such ambition to join any military agreement of any kind, just stating that position to be clear."

Offline Achkaerin

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2023, 09:57:47 PM »
"I believe this is the proposed trade section as it currently stands including the Consul's proposed addition" Xiaoling said "Do correct me if I'm wrong"

Quote
In order to effect more prosperous trading oppurtunities the nations signed as members of the ADSN agree to the following measures.

1. Any export to a member nations shall be accompanied by a declaration that the export abides by all local laws. To ensure compliance the receiving nation may carry out any non-destructive test on any product arriving at their nation. Any product deemed to be not incompliance with local laws or not accompanied by a decleration shall see a fine of non more than 5 times the value of the consignment paid by the exporter.

2. On the anniversary of the signing of this document each member nation shall produce a list of tariffs to be paid by all member nations. Those tariffs may be set on any goods or items the nation wish. The tariffs set by each nation must be at a level lower than for any nation with which they do not have a current trade agreement with.

3. This agreement does not prevent member nations making their own trade agreements.

4. Any item with a value of less than $1million exported to a nation for temporary use shall be permitted to enter tariff free so long as it is for a period of less than 30 days.

5. ADSN nations agree to allow operations by businesses from other ADSN nations on condition that those businesses operate following local laws concerning taxation, employment, health and safety and environmental matters.

OOC - in the interests of keeping things moving might I suggest 48 hours before taking this as agreed unless there be objections to the article?

Offline Beatrice

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2023, 04:00:47 AM »
OOC: As no objections have been noted, we'll proceed.

"The proposed section as put forth is as such adopted with no objections,"  the Empress would gently say. "Now then, shall we address visas? It is the opinion of the First Empire that we are prepared to adopt a generous attitude in this sphere, but I am interested in hearing in what you all have to say before presenting my own ideas here."

Beatrice Anselmo
Grand Chancellor of the Independent Order
Empress of the First Empire of Rokkenjima

Factbook of the First Empire of Rokkenjima - Kingdom of Clysperis

Offline Aosta

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2023, 07:32:27 PM »
Aosta had a track record in the past of having welcomed people from afar, but things were changing. When they'd accepted the Bene Gesserit Aosta had vast stretches of farmland that needed labour, the Bene Gesserit brought wealthy with them and then things began to change, the world had modernised and now in the 21st Century there was  in Serena's view less need for the Empire to need people to do things for them. "I think we perhaps here may see division. I understand the CSTO and CSU had provisions for visa free movement of such. I personally don't hold with that 100% but I do believe if we're to help each other in circules such as science, business and even education then making it easier for some to move will be a good step. I therefore propose the following.

Quote from: Via Section

On order to ease the movement of citizens throughout the ADSN region members of the ADSN agree to the following measures.

1. There shall the the establishment of a three path system for visas. These shall be the Short Term Visa, Business Visa and Educational Visa

2. The Short Term Visa shall be available to any individual who books return or onward passage via any means at least 30 days before the date of travel. So long as these dates are no longer apart than 60 calendar days then the individual may enter visa free so long as the receiving nation do not believe that the person poses a risk to the security or good order of the nation. Holders of this visa may not undertake any work while staying in the receiving nation.

3. The Business Visa shall be available to any individual who is travelling on business purposes. To obtain this an individual must have a guarantor from a business within the receiving nation. This visa shall allow an individual to remain in the receiving nation for 180 days and they may undertake paid employment while based there. This type of visa may not be renewed for 90 days. Should the receiving nation believe the individual is a risk to security or good order of the nation then entry may be stopped.

4. The Educational Visa shall be available to any individual who has obtained confirmation of the offer of an educational course within a receiving nation. This visa shall cover the entire duration of the course and will permit the holder to a maximum of 20 hours per work employment during their course.   Should the receiving nation believe the individual is a risk to security or good order of the nation then entry may be stopped.

5. Any individual breaking the conditions of any of these three visa programmes is liable to deportation and may be banned from travel to the receiving nation indefinitely.

6. The home nation shall take all reasonable steps to ensure anyone deported and banned from travel is prevented from returning.

Offline Abertone

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2023, 09:59:24 PM »
Graziano studied the proposal. He broadly liked the ideas that Empress Serena had put forward. There were however a few issues that he had. "I strongly support the majority of what the Empress has put forward however I would like to make a few things clear. What concerns me is if we end up with large scale economic migration taking advantage of a 180 days and not perhaps contributing to the tax economy of the nation they are living in. I would want to see a measure put in where before leaving the nation on a Business Visa a person must present receipts showing that while in the nation they have paid the same amount of tax as a person from that nation would have receiving the same wage or making the same income. I would also like a provision put in place that a nation can access criminal records to ensure we can background check individuals arriving in our nation. At present we have no way of knowing whether that Rokkenjiman student arriving in our nation taking advantage of a Educational Visa is not for example someone convicted of say sexual assault. If we can find a way around these issues I'm happy to see your ideas added."

Offline Beatrice

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2023, 02:10:23 AM »
"I believe that a database of criminal records, to be accessed only for the purposes of visa verifications, would be a solution to the concerns presented. I am also in agreement with receipts being presented and feel that the suggestion makes sense. While increasing the ease of travel is a goal doing so responsibly is the prudent course of action moving forward."

Beatrice Anselmo
Grand Chancellor of the Independent Order
Empress of the First Empire of Rokkenjima

Factbook of the First Empire of Rokkenjima - Kingdom of Clysperis

Offline Achkaerin

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2023, 07:33:35 PM »
One thing was for certain Serena and Graziano were showing all their diplomatic smarts. The big problem coming in had been consideration of what other nations had already signed, so far they'd avoided that mainly because everything agreed so far lined up with all the previous agreements and that now included this proposal on visa's. Xiaoling took a moment.

"Empress Serena's proposal is broadly the norm, it defines the types of visa, it defines lengths and other such things it is therefore supported. Likewise the Consul's points are equally agreeable but he does imply something else that we may need to consider, that of extradition. The Consul correctly identifies that a Rokkenjiman student travelling to Abertone that has been convicted of a sexual assault should not be allowed to take advantage of the visa, because and I don't wish to put words into the Consul's mouth but the reasoning is presumably that the Rokkenjiman student poses a risk. However assume for the moment that there is no conviction but that the student has committed a crime and uses the visa as a means of fleeing the jurisdiction, I think it appropriate that there be a mechanism that once the evidence is collected that it be possible for the student to be handed over to the relevant authority."

Offline Aosta

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2023, 08:29:45 PM »
Serena was pleased that it seeemed like so far she was broadly speaking getting the deal she believed that both she, and Aosta wanted. The point from Xiaoling was not going to be an issue however there was something Serena wished to get across. " I believe that extradition should not necessarily be automatic. There may be situations where in the future a member nation seeks to extradite someone and doing so would prevent fair trials or the accusation is malicious. I therefore would like to see that extradition takes place only after assurances are made in the courts of the nation in which the accused are based that the accused is going to get a fair trial. I also believe that as none of the visas were suggesting allow an individual to just turn up and travel the police background checks should flag up the accusation before they travel and as such I know Aosta would not allow the travel in the first place. It is also the case that should allegations turn up once they arrived we would consider them a risk to good order or national security, depending on the accusation and so under the terms of a visa they would be deported. I am though happy if our friend wishes to suggest some belts and braces wording. "

Offline Daitō

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2023, 12:19:23 AM »
   "I am inclined to agree, at least with regards to extradition." Said Konishi, who had been listening in on the conversation before he would add anything. "While I wouldn't want to disparage the courts of the other nations represented here, there are certainly... differences in how they operate." He noted, briefly glancing at the Skalvian delegation before returning his gaze to the others. There were some things he had seen, been present for, which even now, after twenty-six years, yet lingered in his mind. Regardless of how he felt, regardless of what he thought of them, there was work still to be done. "Likewise, I would support the creation of a database for criminal records, as it would generally assist in the background checks already performed on foreign nationals entering the country." He paused. "However, I would like to propose one additional type of visa, one which it is my belief will prove beneficial to the ADSN as a whole."
Quote from: Visa Section
On order to ease the movement of citizens throughout the ADSN region members of the ADSN agree to the following measures.

1. There shall the the establishment of a four path system for visas. These shall be the Short Term Visa, Business Visa, Educational Visa, and the Temporary Worker Visa.

2. The Short Term Visa shall be available to any individual who books return or onward passage via any means at least 30 days before the date of travel. So long as these dates are no longer apart than 60 calendar days then the individual may enter visa free so long as the receiving nation do not believe that the person poses a risk to the security or good order of the nation. Holders of this visa may not undertake any work while staying in the receiving nation.

3. The Business Visa shall be available to any individual who is travelling on business purposes. To obtain this an individual must have a guarantor from a business within the receiving nation. This visa shall allow an individual to remain in the receiving nation for 180 days and they may undertake paid employment while based there. This type of visa may not be renewed for 90 days. Should the receiving nation believe the individual is a risk to security or good order of the nation then entry may be stopped.

4. The Educational Visa shall be available to any individual who has obtained confirmation of the offer of an educational course within a receiving nation. This visa shall cover the entire duration of the course and will permit the holder to a maximum of 20 hours per work employment during their course. Should the receiving nation believe the individual is a risk to security or good order of the nation then entry may be stopped.

5. The Temporary Worker Visa shall be available to any individual who has obtained confirmation of employment in the receiving nation. The visa shall be issued based on several factors, including ones profession and the duration of their contract, and last between three months and five years. This type of visa may be renewed prior to its expiration, provided that one meets the requisite criteria. Should the receiving nation believe the individual is a risk to security or good order of the nation, then entry may be stopped.

6. Any individual breaking the conditions of any of these three visa programmes is liable to deportation and may be banned from travel to the receiving nation indefinitely.

7. The home nation shall take all reasonable steps to ensure anyone deported and banned from travel is prevented from returning.

Offline Viljandi

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2023, 12:23:40 AM »
Tanya studied the Visa agreements her ears perked up in terms of extradition and read the Daitojin's expression carefully. A lot of war criminals had fled Skalvia in 1997 and boyond and have gone into hiding, she would usually have the nations intelliagence services track them down and kill them, however she knew that not many nations would look kindly on that so she kept that opinion to herself. So she would just ask questions for now. "Can I ask. While we are talking about extradition I ask that if we are to provide assuences of a fair trial, what type of assurances would be needed. Or is that left to the discretion of both parties? Some rather unsavory figures have fled my nation in the late 90's with false identities, some we have managed to track. others have alluded us. In that respect, if we were to follow that framework that is being suggested here. How would we go about tracking down and brining those kind of people to justice?" She asked respectively wanted to gauge the situtation before she would suggest something different or sign.

Offline Achkaerin

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2023, 12:59:15 AM »
"If Empress Tanya will bear with me for a moment I'd like to first respond to the Daito Prime Minister and ask a simple question given what is implied by the business visa could he perhaps explain what the difference is between the business visa and the temporary workers visa he proposes to add as they largely seem to overlap." Xiaoling said "Now in terms of extradition to answer Empress Tanya's question I'll say that Empress Serena is correct it is the right of the nation being asked to request assurances, these will vary nation to nation, so for example if I was asked to hand someone over I'm asking for assurances of a fair trial, for which I would take the relevant article of the MCUR, I would also want to be clear that the death penalty was off the table, that's simple Achkaerinese policy which of course does not impact on your own respective processes so while we wait on the Prime Ministers clarifications allow me to provide the belt and braces:

Quote
On order to ease the movement of citizens throughout the ADSN region members of the ADSN agree to the following measures.

1. There shall the the establishment of a four path system for visas. These shall be the Short Term Visa, Business Visa, Educational Visa, and the Temporary Worker Visa.

2. The Short Term Visa shall be available to any individual who books return or onward passage via any means at least 30 days before the date of travel. So long as these dates are no longer apart than 60 calendar days then the individual may enter visa free so long as the receiving nation do not believe that the person poses a risk to the security or good order of the nation. Holders of this visa may not undertake any work while staying in the receiving nation.

3. The Business Visa shall be available to any individual who is travelling on business purposes. To obtain this an individual must have a guarantor from a business within the receiving nation. This visa shall allow an individual to remain in the receiving nation for 180 days and they may undertake paid employment while based there. This type of visa may not be renewed for 90 days. Should the receiving nation believe the individual is a risk to security or good order of the nation then entry may be stopped.

4. The Educational Visa shall be available to any individual who has obtained confirmation of the offer of an educational course within a receiving nation. This visa shall cover the entire duration of the course and will permit the holder to a maximum of 20 hours per work employment during their course. Should the receiving nation believe the individual is a risk to security or good order of the nation then entry may be stopped.

5. The Temporary Worker Visa shall be available to any individual who has obtained confirmation of employment in the receiving nation. The visa shall be issued based on several factors, including ones profession and the duration of their contract, and last between three months and five years. This type of visa may be renewed prior to its expiration, provided that one meets the requisite criteria. Should the receiving nation believe the individual is a risk to security or good order of the nation, then entry may be stopped.

6. Any individual breaking the conditions of any of these visa programmes is liable to deportation and may be banned from travel to the receiving nation indefinitely.

7. The home nation shall take all reasonable steps to ensure anyone deported and banned from travel is prevented from returning.

8. In the event of an individual traveler in one nation being believed to be responsible, whether individually or as a conspirator, for criminal actions within the jurisdiction of another member state, the individual shall be extradited subject to the following being provided to the visited nations relevant authority.
a) Evidence of the wrongdoing
b) An understanding that the individual will receive a fair trial in a court of law

9. There shall be no obligation for the visited nation to extradite an individual to the death penalty.

Offline Daitō

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2023, 03:26:56 AM »
   "It's quite simple, really." Sadazane cleared his throat. "The business visa is largely confined to periods of just 180 days, which, I will freely admit, covers a part of what is being proposed under the Temporary Worker Visa. However, for those individuals working in a foreign country for longer than 180 days, being forced to renew their visa within half a year of their arrival could be... troublesome, we'll say. For example, let's say we have a teacher from Aosta working in Daitō. Normally, the school year begins at the start of the second week of April and ends in the first week of March. Let's then assume that this teacher arrives roughly two weeks before classes begin, so under the business visa, they'd have 180 days in the country. This would mean that, assuming they cannot renew their visa—something which can happen for any number of reasons—this teacher could only remain in the country roughly half-way into the school year, leaving them without work and said school scrambling to find a replacement.

   "With a Temporary Worker Visa, such as what Daitō already uses, such a situation is, barring the worst of circumstances, unlikely to occur. Why? Because the individual's stay is determined by the length of their contract, up to five years at a time at an absolute maximum. This means that a foreigner working in Daitō will not have to worry about not being able to stay, whether they will be able to complete their contract or not. Instead, going back to this example, under the 'TWV', said teacher would be allowed to stay until mid-March, providing enough time for them to make the arrangements to return home."

   Of course, though Sadazane didn't say it, he found that calling it a Business Visa was... confusing, given the contents of it. It appeared to be a work visa, however, it only lasted 180 days, similar to a standard short-stay visa. It also meant that there was room for confusion with actual business visas, which only permitted participating in commerce within a country. "In other words, either the current Business Visa being proposed should be retooled to better fit the standard of a Temporary Worker Visa, or it should be reworked to better fit the profile of an actual business visa as understood by most governments."

Offline Abertone

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2023, 09:07:06 PM »
Graziano might not have been the one to propose the approach of Empress Serena but he had liked her idea. "The Temporary Worker visa is in effect what we already have. You want to come and work in Abertone at the moment then we expect you to be able to offer skills in a shortage profession, we expect you to have funds to support yourself for the first few months until your pay starts rolling in and we carry out extensive background checks. I don't therefore believe we need this as an article for this organisation as nations already can have their own approach tailor made to their situation. The three concepts put forward by Empress Serena deal with new situations that will be made streamlined, Short Term makes holiday travel much simpler, Business means less planning is required for say a demonstrator to travel between our two nations to showcase products or attend perhaps a trade show, the Education visa opens up oppurtunities in a much more simple way for students. I have no intention of just opening up our employment market to the nations of the Straits"

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2023, 07:23:27 PM »
Serena felt she somehow should repay Graziano for supporting some of her earlier points, it wasn't too hard as everything the Abertonian had said was pretty much in line with what she herself felt. Like Abertone the Empire of Aosta already had routes towards people gaining longer work permits. "I am afraid I too feel a kind of free for all would be a mistake, especially long term arrangements. I don't think a complete open worker system is useful in the long term and therefore this, at least in its current format, is not something I can support."

Offline Achkaerin

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2023, 02:30:28 AM »
"I tend to agree a free for all is not the best idea." Xiaoling said "Also having asked question, I don't see the need to have two what we might call employment paths here. The business visa is for 180 days, it's six months give or take a few days and it allows the person traveling to undertake paid employment. However the Prime Minister does have a fair point, a teacher for example may be contracted to teach abroad for an academic year that's on average nine months it seems a little odd that they wouldn't be able to fulfill the contract length. So if I may make a suggestion rather than create a free for all, let's put the decision making for such circumstances where it belongs which is with the relevant authority in the receiving nation, I propose the inclusion of a provision that allows the receiving nation to at their discretion increase the length of the visa, essentially allowing the nation to say yes to the increased length or stick to the 180 days. Equally this would allow for a student to study for their undergraduate degree abroad and then be able to request an extension on the visa to cover their studying of a postgraduate degree. I don't imagine this cirumstance arising with the short term visa but I believe allowing the receiving nation to exert discretion in this instance is a viable compromise. Which I believe leaves us with this."

Quote
On order to ease the movement of citizens throughout the ADSN region members of the ADSN agree to the following measures.

1. There shall the the establishment of a four path system for visas. These shall be the Short Term Visa, Business Visa, Educational Visa, and the Temporary Worker Visa.

2. The Short Term Visa shall be available to any individual who books return or onward passage via any means at least 30 days before the date of travel. So long as these dates are no longer apart than 60 calendar days then the individual may enter visa free so long as the receiving nation do not believe that the person poses a risk to the security or good order of the nation. Holders of this visa may not undertake any work while staying in the receiving nation.

3. The Business Visa shall be available to any individual who is travelling on business purposes. To obtain this an individual must have a guarantor from a business within the receiving nation. This visa shall allow an individual to remain in the receiving nation for 180 days and they may undertake paid employment while based there. This type of visa may not be renewed for 90 days. Should the receiving nation believe the individual is a risk to security or good order of the nation then entry may be stopped.

4. The Educational Visa shall be available to any individual who has obtained confirmation of the offer of an educational course within a receiving nation. This visa shall cover the entire duration of the course and will permit the holder to a maximum of 20 hours per work employment during their course. Should the receiving nation believe the individual is a risk to security or good order of the nation then entry may be stopped.

5. The Length of the above visas may be increased at the discretion of the receiving nation.

6. Any individual breaking the conditions of any of these visa programmes is liable to deportation and may be banned from travel to the receiving nation indefinitely.

7. The home nation shall take all reasonable steps to ensure anyone deported and banned from travel is prevented from returning.

8. In the event of an individual traveler in one nation being believed to be responsible, whether individually or as a conspirator, for criminal actions within the jurisdiction of another member state, the individual shall be extradited subject to the following being provided to the visited nations relevant authority.
a) Evidence of the wrongdoing
b) An understanding that the individual will receive a fair trial in a court of law

9. There shall be no obligation for the visited nation to extradite an individual to the death penalty.


Offline Beatrice

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2023, 08:31:18 PM »
"This seems to be a fair path forward," the Empress would respond. "Are there any comments or concerns as to the proposal as it is currently worded?"

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Offline Daitō

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2023, 08:50:16 PM »
   "These terms are... Acceptable." Sadazane said with a nod; One of the first lessons he had learned from his time in the Diet had been the value of compromise, and in his eyes, the proposal raised by the Chief Councilor was a good in-between for the two opposing sides. It may have not been what he had wanted, hence his own proposal, but so long as all parties were satisfied, it stood a chance of standing the test of time. However, there had, as of yet, not been input given by all parties. While three delegations had agreed, if one counted the Achkaerinese counter-proposal as a vote in favor, they simply didn't have enough votes to push it forwards, not yet at least. For now, he would simply wait and see how the Abertonians, Aostans, and Skalvians would respond, whether positively or not. If they were in favor, then they could move on. If not, then it would be as simple as finding a way to accommodate their needs without damaging his nation's own interests.

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2023, 09:27:16 PM »
"We've three delegations in agreement thus far," the Empress would say, "and I personally believe this is the best path forward given the differing positions presented, and once we can find a position where we're all in agreement we can move onto defensive concerns. I'm not expecting a mutual defence pact this early on, nor do I view this as our final meeting in this process for our region, I very much feel what we have here today is just the first in a series of talks for us. I'd like to propose the next hour (OOC: RL=two days from now) for any objections or concerns to be raised before formally considering the proposal before us and moving on to the next topic. With that being said I do believe, on the next topic of discussion, we should limit the foreign military presence in our region and commit to an assurance that native, Dauntel/Shaw concerns always outweigh those outside of our region, that our destiny is always firmly within our hands."

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Offline Abertone

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2023, 08:17:38 AM »
Graziano was pleased that so far things had been rather smooth but he suspected he was about to ruffle a few feathers. "The idea of an organisation attempting to impose limits on the manner in which a nation conducts defence is a tricky one. First off all as I look around the table I see Rokkenjima, Daitō and Achkaerin all with overseas bases often without consultation with the wider region. Take for example the recent agreement that sees Daitō and Preoria establishh NS LLwynbelan and NS Hirado. No consultation involving native powers took place there. The establishment of LLwynbelan even came amid talks being hosted in the region on naval security. Meanwhile Rokkenjima have in the past established military presence in the Illumic that lead to a long standing disagreement with East Moreland and even now maintain a base utilised by Dartfordia. While Achkaerin has establishments I believe in Vaguzia and as far as I know never consulted the Alba Karinya Organisation about such an arrangement. Now I am not at face value saying the existance of these things is neccessarily bad however I do believe their existence flies in the face of what was just proposed." He paused for a moment. "I am going to put on record that it has been a long term intention of my cousin and myself that Abertone will one day in the future seek closer ties with the CNN. We have friendships with many of the members already, especially Lodja" this was largely thanks to his cousin and his "diplomatic" adventures there. "Our first ever treaty under my cousin was with King David and we have had minor meetings with King Finley. If we become members there would obviously be times CNN military assets visited the region and we would not be seeking prior approval from this, or any other body. Therefore I'm not sure how we proceed."

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2023, 02:38:50 AM »
"I will respectfully reserve commentary upon the arrangements which Daitō has pursued and, likewise, will reserve commentary upon Achkaerin as it is Gowu which is a party to this talks; and I'll remind all seated here today that Gowu maintains its own system of government. I will instead focus upon the situation between Rokkenjima and Dartfordia, which is in itself unique amongst all of those. I have little idea why Daitō has pursued the approach it has, however, there will come a day where I will sit upon both the Rokkenjiman and Dartfordian Thrones; just as my mother I am not simply the Empress of Rokkenjima I am also a Princess of Littlebrook, thus arrangements between Rokkenjima and Dartfordia are most certainly a case unlike those you've listed. I would also note that QAMB came about via the invitation of an Illumic nation in a time which saw the United Soviet Russia posing a threat to free nations across the globe. Therefore, perhaps, even that case is most unlike the others you've listed."

"As for the CNN," she paused just briefly, "while I respect King David and view East Moreland as a friend of the First Empire, I recognize their flaws and I'll never forget the moment when Uí Ceinnselaig reintroduced blatant imperialism upon the Ardian continent. We saw them utilize the situation to their advantage, move in their settlers, allow those same settlers to vote in the referendum, and we now live in the reality my aunt warned we could never return to. Not once has the CNN spoken a word against what Ui Ceinnselaig did in Scordisci, and while much of Mundus may wish to move beyond that Rokkenjima maintains that what happened to Scordisci is perhaps the greatest unanswered crime of our era. We all saw the flux of Scordiscians fleeing conflict, leaving areas devoid of a population as per the reports of Ui Ceinnselaig themselves, only to be replaced by Ceinnselaig citizens. Allow me to quote my aunt on that matter."

Quote from: Empress Emerita Evanthe
"The truth is, Bruce, what is occurring within Scordisci has ramifications which shall extend far beyond her borders. When the First Empire, joined by the vast majority of the international community, joined together for the Commonwealth Conference we agreed that there was a better approach to international relations and maintaining peace and stability. We also firmly rejected the principle of past ages that 'might makes right'; that just because a great power may in fact possess the ability to do something, it should simply be accepted. We recognized that a set of international laws and norms maintains stability just as much as it sustains the rights of all nations to their sovereignty and self-determination. The moment we turn our backs upon those principles, to turn a blind eye to the scourge of imperialism as it once again rears its despicable face, is the moment where the world we fought so hard to create ceases to exist."

"This is why Scordisci matters so much. It is not only the future of Scordisci which hangs in the balance, but that of each People and Nation who call Mundus home. Allowing Ui Cennselaig free reign in Scordisci sends a very powerful message that such actions are endorsed, whether through inaction or complicit support in some cases, by the international community. The age of imperialism is dead, the age of throwing around military might without fear of repercussion is dead, but both may once again be empowered should we allow Scordisci to fall. If there was ever a greater moment for the Commonwealth to prove its true value to the international community in the post-Andean era, that moment is now. We cannot afford the failure of inaction, we must defend the values of the Commonwealth and the force of international norms and law, lest we return to an era none of us would wish to live in."

"And here we are in that world she warned of," she sighed. "I am only sorry that Rokkenjima was incapable of doing more to ensure the plight of the Scordisci was stopped then, however, I will note my aunt spoke at great length in attempting to persuede King Finely to a more civilized path, calls he ultimately chose to ignore."

Quote from: Empress Emerita Evanthe
"With the formation of the Commonwealth an overwhelming majority of the international community came together to prevent the types of unilateral actions we see taking place against Scordisci today. It is almost reminiscent of the United Soviet Russia's campaign against the Followers of Earagon, or their invasion of Safraen, whose only crime was to elect a government which did not align with Stalin's objectives or ideologies. Ui Cennselaig, if it wished to do the right thing, would pull its forces back within its borders and dissolve the fictional 'kingdom', returning the land to the Republic. The First Empire will not endorse any course of action which does not address these issues fully, and will seek a consensus-based approach with her partners in the Commonwealth to ensure the principles of international justice, as well as those of the Commonwealth, are upheld."

"What faith can be had in any plan for Scordisci which comes from the very nation which invaded it? Why did King Finley not fully pursue the vast array of diplomatic options to resolving the concerns of his nation before launching his war? Was any plan for action even considered for a proposal to the Cross Mundus Agency, an institution proposed to address the supposed shortcomings of the Commonwealth? Why did Ui Cennselaig not approach a number of diplomatic powers to pursue discussions or, alternatively, to bring diplomatic pressure upon the Republic to address the concerns of Ui Cennselaig? The answers to these questions may never be known, however, the international community did not allow Stalin the power to dictate Safraen's future, nor should it allow King Finley the power to dictate Scordisci's future."

"King Finley speaks not of Rokkenjima's attempts to outrun justice but the pursuits of a traitor and his associates to use his, and their, positions for their own campaign founded upon ill-will; nor did the Imperial Government call upon her allies, the Tarragonians aside, to white-wash the actions of those individuals. King Finley, your words and diversions do you nor your nation any great service. Bring your campaign to an end, dissolve this fictitious 'kingdom' and pursue a diplomatic avenue before that avenue is closed. I assure you, the consequences for remaining upon this path shall not be favourable to you, or Ui Cennselaig."

"Thus, one could argue, as the CNN has not once addressed the issues of Ui Ceinnselaig imperialism on our continent, they in fact endorse the actions taken by the Kingdom. They often say that the company we keep is indicative of our character, and I'd pray to the Seven Divine no one sat in this room would endorse one power abusing another sovereign state to live under their heel as we saw Scordisci subjected so brutally to. We're all free to choose who we're friends with," the Empress sighed, "but we should also hope to consider our friends with full disclosure at the same time. That the CNN did not act, as the CSTO did when its members made wrong decisions, is an indictment against the whole of the CNN and remains something they must address. I do apologize for my digression, however, whilst the CNN has done well in their public relations they've a good many skeletons in their closet that anyone wishing to associate themselves with them should be aware of. Given their track record on this issue, I nor any of us should feel reassured their assets could be in our waters."

Beatrice Anselmo
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Empress of the First Empire of Rokkenjima

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Offline Abertone

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2023, 08:25:01 AM »
Graziano wondered if it was a curse of youth to sometimes lose track of where their attention lied, he saw the same in his nephews and nieces and sadly in his own children Andrew and Benedict. Once she had finished the Consul began again. "With respect your views of the CNN add nothing to the point I was making. I'm sure you'd agree each of us around this table are free to form our own views over who is and isn't a suitable friend for our nations. The issue I brought up is simple. You're proposal of limiting foreign military presences and seeing that native concerns outweigh outsiders is unfeasible. First it gives this fledgling organisation a way to directly influence another nations foreign policy. Second we already have significant foreign military in the region. Regardless of whether you become the monarch of Dartfordia one day or not they are a foreign nation and not native to this region. We would have in your situation the commander in chief of a foreign, non native military in this organization. Add to that we have  Preorian ships already in the region. Now on the matter of Gowu I never mentioned them as I'm aware they are heavily connected to Achkaerin, and that their military is often in this region as we've seen in the past. That is understandable with their connection to Gowu but I would still consider the majority of their military non-native however the concern I have with Achkaerin is that they have military agreements with Vaguzia. Now I do not see how we can have your goal that  "we should limit the foreign military presence in our region and commit to an assurance that native, Dauntel/Shaw concerns always outweigh those utside of our region, that our destiny is always firmly within our hands." while that is already the reality on the ground. So if the proposal you have placed goes through I would be expected to limit our own friends activities in the region and cater more to your world view than that of perhaps our friends. Meanwhile I would be able to stand on the shores of Abertone and in the East wave at Dartfordian vessels merrily making their way to Rokkenjima while in the West I could see Preorian and maybe even Vaguzian ships chugging down the coasts of Ardia on their way to bases here?"

Offline Aosta

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2023, 12:13:34 PM »
Serena had at one point considered the CNN as a pathway for her nation yet then had come the East Moreland opinion of the Bene Gesserit, her own secret faith, and there had been a move away from that. "Aosta has always been closer to the Alucard nations than those of the Strait of Shaw. We've ran exercises with Paracambi and we supported Lodja in matters relating to their own recent civil war. These are two relationships we will be building on in the future. My concern is that should......when we do deceide to run joint operations, or exercises off our coast in the Straits your proposal would effectively mean we should consider how you all would feel. Let me give you a real life example. Who were the first to support the cause of the people of Troyes? It wasn't me despite me putting in the proposal here that started our meeting. It was the Nords. For years the Nords have supported the people of Marseille and a case could be made that they are Marseilles closest allies. I'm confident that if we asked the people of MArseille if they would welcome a Nord fleet in the Straits they would undoubetedly say yes. Meanwhile I believe that Tytor, and quiet possibly Rokkenjima currently have sanctions against them, if we're saying to keep foreign assets out the region why should Rokkenjima be able to welcome their Dartfordian friends while the people of Marseille would face perhaps issues welcoming theirs. I will not support any measure that as the Consul suggests would give a foreign power any influence over my own nations foreign policy."

She paused and then slid a piece of paper onto the table. "To prevent this becoming a back and forth of myself and the Consul arguing our case and the Empress and perhaps Emperor Eijirō from arguing that their current arrangements are not comparable we should look at what we can agree upon."



Quote from: Proposal

In order to make the region a safer place for all nations members agree to the following.

1. That they shall first and foremost consider their regional neighbors as friends and as such shall do all that is reasonably possible to avoid armed conflict with them.

2. In order to protect citizens of all nations any intelligence gathered by one nation that would indicate a likely threat to another is to be shared in a speedy manner. Should a nation believe that by revealing this intelligence it would place its own safety or operations in jepodey then they are excused from sharing this intelligence.

3. Each nation shall maintain in their embassy a military attaché who shall share relevant military details with their host nation so long as doing so does not infringe on the attaché's own nations security.

4. Nations hosting military exercises shall, so long as it is safe to do so, advertise via the attaché system the size, scope and nature of these exercises at least 3 days before they begin. They shall ensure all relevant notices to shipping and airmen are made in good time.

5. Nations agree that they shall take no action to prevent or interfere in exercises of another nation so long as that exercise does impose on their own waters as laid out in UNCLOS.

6. Nations agree that under no circumstances will they knowingly allow a third party nation to utilize their territory, waters or airspace to conduct a first strike or similar operation against another member nation.


Offline Beatrice

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2023, 04:30:18 AM »
"I shall abide by this, and add my signature to it, so long as no CNN assets transit into the Rokkenjima Sea," the Empress would simply respond. "Though as I am to be Queen of the Dartfordians I'll continue to state that any relationships, or attempted equivalents, you should present will not be equivalent to the Rokkenjiman-Dartfordian relationship as it is unique amongst any you could present."

"I'll merely add, once again that Ui Ceinnselaig in particular, and the CNN by extension, revisited imperialism upon Ardian shores, and that this First Empire will see the Kingdom and any who support its position on Scordici are held responsible for their actions henceforth."

Beatrice Anselmo
Grand Chancellor of the Independent Order
Empress of the First Empire of Rokkenjima

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Offline Abertone

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Re: Proposing The Association of Dauntel and Shaw Nations (ADSN) - OPEN
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2023, 01:08:21 PM »
Graziano shook his head. "What right does Rokkenjima have to tell nations where they can and can't go under the freedom of navigation. The sea may bear your name but by no means do you own it. Do you honestly believe that it would be your right to stop a Lodjian vessel visiting the Allied States of Ardia, or the Maori visiting Toshikawa? The article put forward by Empress Serena is what we should be discussing. Your issues with the CNN are between you and them. However now you want to try and use this organisation to impose us to approve some kind of breach of the FSC it would mean that we're likely to be unable to accept membership of any body that seeks to make us basically international criminals. Also attempting to place to Rokkenjima-Dartfordia relationship as some kind of exception is in my view promoting that this is basically some two tier movement. You expect us all to accept vessels not native to the region coming and going as they wish yet try and block others. This is not a partnership that is now seemingly being built on an equal foundation."