My thoughts

[Altona]

The last 40 something days have seen bubbling away in the order of several concerns particularly by a newer group of players. I'm not going to name names as I've the feeling that I'm about to get an absolute pile on. I've been very vocal about my concerns with the region to those in positions of "power" and got nothing so I, like many others feeling down about things, have retreated to my own little clique where we feel comfortable. We essentially have two "leaders" in TIO, Beatrice as Grand Chancellor and Dave as RP Mod. I've been in touch with both of them continiusly since this first came up. If I give you a run down of my time in TIO you'll see where the big issues are and why others, who I hope will be more open, feel in the same way.

I was recruited in so to speak by Dave, the region had no formal "Hi welcome" type thing no clear or obvious way to get started, that wasn't a problem because I'm an experienced RPer and had got chatting with Dave over in NS so knew I could message him. The first impression when you join is no one gives a shit. I've seen it happen with other new people since, they introduce themselves and you can literally guess who will respond to them. Now I have reasonably thick skin but others don't. We've seen people being massively critical of things as soon as people start posting. Most recently "Oh not another Teuton" , or "Wow another monarchy not like we haven't got enough" or things along those lines. Straight away you feel like this is a community that has limits and constraints and you ask yourself if this is really the region for you. It becomes especially worse because you have no idea about the pecking order, geopolitics etc in the region when you join and you see that quiet often its people with masks on the forum or discord such as "Mod" or "Noble" that are involved so immediately you question your choices. If people stick with it though we have people like Rob, Dave, Nova and Markus that go out their way to help you get your direction and feel like you've some understanding of Mundus.

This then leads to the second issue. There is a very definite pecking order in the geopolitics of Mundus. That is how it should be, obviously in the real world their is too and so if we're simulating life there should be on Mundus. Just as in real life though that pecking order changes just in a RP region it should and must change quicker than in RL. We haven't got the 100 or so years to watch an Empire slowly crumble or the 15 years or so for election reforms. The problem is you very quickly get the idea that this order must be preserved in Mundus. Its backed by two alliances that since I joined just under a year ago have done nothing constructive. The CNN might as well not exist and the CSTO/CSU is fluffed with people who don't contribute anything to RP in the region. I could, and probably should just ignore them, but I want to be a good RPer and as such it would be impossible in real life not to take them into consideration. When I informed people that I'm in the middle of a plot that would create a kind of global network that could potentially stand up to both these established systems its prompted a message to the whole region that "Individual decisions, or actions of groups outside the RP leadership, will be reviewed and catagorized for what they are. There will be no gaming of the Orderian RP." I'm not gaming, I'm seeing the CSU/CNN etc as a problem for nations in the world and as a nation that wants to be seen as a global player I've started trying to do something. Now I'm not expecting a mega 20 nation alliance to spring up tomorrow but the very fact that I trusted someone with these details and rather than watching it happen the leadership have seen fit to send a message that the world order must be preserved reinforces my issue that we have a pecking order and I should know my place. I've been in touch with Beatrice and seen that she's offering to get rid of Rokkenjima etc, and while thats comendable thats not what I want. I asked Dave about the quality of RP in this region before I joined and he linked me to two people's RP stuff, quiet a bit on the old forum. One was Beatrice's, I think she's an amazing writer and story-teller, the other was Markus' Tamora stuff. Both those examples are what we should aim for as a region creating stories in reaction to others and not as we're becoming to preserve a position. I think the Rokkenjima of the old forum deservedly held a place as a super-power that nations respected. I'm now not of that opinion of Rokkenjima and as a result I think I should be within my rights to RP that Altona would perhaps do something about it, and that I should be allowed to RP that without being accused of gaming or told that anything I do to disrupt canon will be vetod.

Canon is also another issue. Its based on stuff involving nations that are long gone. If they left TIO they left, get over it move on. Yesterday I saw my friend and Teutonic buddy Hassfurt leave because they felt ostricised by a region where on Discord people had been critical of their writing both because it was hard to understand (their Portugese and German is their 2nd languge, English their third and part of being here was to try and improve their English. So imagine how it sucks when people say they can barely understand you. I'm amazed at the quality that Markus writes when I believe he's Romanian, his RP writing is better than mine and I'm a native speaker) and because they had a RL negative view of the nation, probably correctly so. Hassfurt was an interesting concept that could have lead to so much cool RP but everytime anyone mentioned their name someone followed it with Nazi and people refused to interact with them. All RP doesn't have to be at the highest level of government and we shouldn't be expecting people, especially people new to the region, to be the ones instigating RP. Its up to the existing people in the region to help and nurture them. We all are here because we're interested in story telling, help people write stories. One of the most intriguing RP's to me at the moment is Nova and Lijiang's smuggling RP. Its something moving forward we can all have fun with but hardly anyone is doing anything in RP beyond diplomatic stuff and as a new nation it becomes hard to get involved. As a result you do something like a coronation, and two people turn up, which means you're vision of hierachy and cliques is reinforced. Now I don't think we should force people to attend but if we're going to encourage people to stay we need to make time to involve them in our worlds and we have to take that step not them. I think of TIO a bit like a house share, if you're the new person you don't want to steal someone elses place on the sofa so you wait for everyone else to get settled before you sit down and then after a few weeks you've found your feet.

Next we've the issue of the the RP rules. I've been accused of gaming because I'm trying to put together a group of nations that could work together to challenge the perceived intolerance/injustice/hypocricy etc that IC exists on Mundus. To me this is not a bad aim for a nation to have. I'm not forcing anyone to join, I'm not going to suddenly post an announcement that I've signed a treaty with three other nations. I intend to RP it out and quiet likely in the process if I'd pulled it off I'd have been seeing Altona being called quiet manipulative, which is what I aimed for. I jokingly the other day said Altona was going to try and buy all the uranium because its trying to monopolise the nuclear power industry and we kind of noticed during a discord chat a lot of uranium producing nations were not members of the MAEA. This sparked an arguement about the importance and history of the MAEA during this I jokingly messaged Maes and said "betting by the end of the week the CSU/CNN have a new source of uranium." Soon after its found in Clysperis. I get new resources can just be discovered in RL but to me as someone who had found a little niche in the world that could have made interesting RP it looks very suspect. Gaming is already taking place on Mundus people say something on Discord and suddenly something happens IC that puts someone in a better position to either take advantage, counter it or one up it.

Another concern is that we seem to be obsessed with arguing. A good example here is the Cool and the Dodo arguement. Dave had to go to bat for a good half an hour on the behalf of Cool who had written something interesting. The first thought on that should have been a) is it damaging RP b) is it likely to be doable c) is it interesting. For all I care Cool could have brought back the Mammoth as it'd have no impact on RP for me he'd just have some stupid looking elephants. Could he bring back a dinosaur, no cos that's just bizarre. Meanwhile we've navies and air forces rocking improbable looking equipment. I honestly believe we have people on discord that if someone said the grass was green would demand you open your window and take a picture with a copy of todays newspaper next to it. Some of the arguements don't even make sense. Yesterday I witnessed an RP post, or the poster I couldn't tell which, get called "Pathetic" with no more feedback given and then when asked by the author politely for some just ignored. The fact anyone would call either a poster or their work "pathetic" is awful. It was clear lots of research, time effort and thought had gone into the post. Now these issues are bad enough but when they come from people with titles of nobility and mods it becomes worse because they are, rightly or wrongly, seen as the government of this region. They are the people the Grand Chancellor has effectively given some form of power to which makes our region work.

Finally we have the manner in which I think this has been handled. I exchanged messages with Beatrice when this began, I know Rob did too. We engaged with consultations on the forum. We made suggestions. Now I've seen today I've effectively been told to go make my own region, that my RP will be blocked and that the GC's door is "always open" well I stepped through that door around 40 days ago. The problem with an open door policy is that if you only ever expect people to step through it and don't leave your office to go and speak to people you'll find people stop stepping through the open door.

Now Tytor said people need to make suggestions. He's right and I have several times both on the forum , in private and on discord. Here having reached this point is what I would do.

1) Have no GC involvement in determing what RP is permitted. The post today saying "Individual decisions, or actions of groups outside the RP leadership, will be reviewed and catagorized for what they are. There will be no gaming of the Orderian RP." is for me saying their is a non-changable RP hierachy that must be maintained. I now also no longer trust Dave fully to see to the interest in the community in terms of what RP is allowed in terms of a hierachy. I think Dave does a great job and frankly without him TIO would be dead. I think though for any RP to be veto'd now he's lost trust I'd want to see two of Nova, Markus or Rob in a position to work alongside Dave to make sure RP is fair. Dave should remain as RP Mod and does a great job checking realism, supporting players in terms of IC involvement.

2) The nobility must be scrapped. It means nothing and everything it did mean is irrelevant. It gives the impression a person is important or significant in the region and while at one time they may have been the set up now requires three roles. A Grand Chancellor, A RP Mod and someone for if the rules outside RP are broken. I have no issue with keeping the people in the jobs that currently do them. Beatrice has at times been the gold standard for what this region can be, Dave works tremendously hard and Achkaerin has a good knowledge of the rules of the region. They could be a solid team if they get the RP side of the region right and frankly thats why we are here.

3) Sort the mods out. If your new to a region you see the word "Mod" and think they are the people who will be supportive and helpful. We have Mods who are not actively engaging with people in the region. Now the arguement will be "their discord mods and are just people active to make sure no problems are happening on Discord." well we get once chance to make a good first impression and when the mods are inactive in the main reason why people join the region then its not a great look.

4) Consistency and being pro-active - We've seen huge knee jerk reactions to things. Today is a prime example. "Rokkenjima is a NPC", "I'm giving up my powers that'll show em."........moments later "Can someone mask me back with my old powers." When something happens we need to take more time before doing things. 40+ days on consulting on a change though isn't acceptable. Its no use saying my doors open and leaving it at that a good leader is someone who is pro-active. Beatrice has known for 40 odd days I'm one of those annoyed with the region. Never in that time has she asked if I've seen any improvement.

5) We need a community that isn't living in the past. Rayyu the other day calculated that we have just shy of 40 active nations, that activity ranges from people just active on Discord, to people posting maybe one RP a month and then Dave who posts several times an hour. I've seen more mention of SANE on the Discord and people discussing ideas with them despite none of them being active for a long time now. Meanwhile we've got things and groups actively trying to do things and no one cares. That is fixed not by some rule change but by people getting outside their clique. Once a month Dave, or someone helping him, should post a global incident. We could then post on NS maybe the response to it from various nations in like a news round up. So I've seen one of the Celts has  a volcano thing erupting, why not see if we can have like the Icelandic one that shut down air stuff, maybe get some tourists trapped etc. Instead though what will happen is it'll likely just become a news post thats interesting while people discuss what colour uniform boots their soldiers had in 1963.

I joined TIO hopeful of amazing RP. I've seen absolute gems of stories and ideas. If we want the region to last please change.

[FFion]

6) Make Altona mod.

[Dal]

If the RP Mod is backing this government actively reviewing Rp with their view of "gaming" then we need to replace Dave.

I appreciate the help you've given me Dave but your role is to support RP not block it.

[Rayyu]

Fully agree with what's been said. TIO has potential to be awesome. Its not going to be if we bounce from one reaction to the next. Get a group of mods who respect people who aren't in the in crowd and don't live in the past.

[Achkaerin]

First I'm going to hold my hands up on the "pathetic" comment, it was me and certainly not the appropriate way to describe my opinion of something and I apologise for the comment it will not be repeated.

On Altona's points:

point 1 - I will remind/inform everyone that the core point here of "Have no GC involvement in determining what RP is permitted" already applies. The GC does not have any authority over the RP alone so any statement/rule change made or proposed by the GC on RP is invalid unless the RP Mod has agreed to it. The only two Mods with any authority in RP terms are Dave as RP Mod and myself as firstly Cartographer and secondly as the appeal body.

point 2 - Only commenting on the nobility point here, most of the people who have that role got it as a reward for good RP, but I do think it probably needs to either go or be reset or we find some other way of acknowledging good RP.

point 3 - wholeheartedly agree

point 4 - wholeheartedly agree

point 5 - Again I agree

Final point - Conduct in RP does have a line, taking an alternative view, RPing a contrary approach and so on is fine - Samantra is a fine example. However unnecessary digs and writing another nations history isn't on - there are three players all of whom have in one way or another rewritten aspects of Achkaerin's history without asking me for details. People need to get into the habit of checking things rather than making assumptions. The less "angry RP" the better.

[RobertAgira]

I'm going to support 95% of what Altona said. The 5% where I differ is, and this is maybe me being bias, I think Dave genuinely wants what is best for the RP. I've seen him stand behind people with dumb ass ideas because they could be an interesting story. I've seen him also be the last to give up on someone, i.e Banana Dude. I don't think we need to worry like Dal said about replacing Dave. He'll do what's right by the region.

As for Beatrice I think her reactions show she loves this region. Her, CGJ and Dave are in my view the reason why we can come here and enjoy the hobby that we have. I have had my disputes with Beatrice in the past but I know that 9/10 she ends up seeing sense and doing what is best for the region. Vintage Beatrice IS the pinnacle of great RP because it was about entertaining stories. More of that and less quick reactions to people. We're a community that want whats best to attract and more importantly now retain players.

As many know I'm an RP nomad as I visit different regions with different RP periods, I always come back here because we're consistently one of the most active and one of the most interesting. We're also one of the nastiest discords. 

[Altona]

To- Achkaerin

"there are three players all of whom have in one way or another rewritten aspects of Achkaerin's history without asking me for details." ....and what response did they give when you spoke with them about it? If nothing then that's bad on them.

In terms of RP History I think there are some real issues people have if their new and join.

To:- Rob

I too like you have historic based RP else where occasionally and agree. The most drastic way of solving TIO would be close all discord. Obviously insane.

While I think Dave did do a good job todays events have not cast him in a good way. Like Beatrice though I think TIO would be a much worse place without him.

[Lauren]

As I think the newest person in TIO I want to echo some of these points.

1) Its a region of talent that doesn't make it easy when you join. There is an expectation you just know stuff and people complain if you get things wrong.

2) There is 100% an expectation of you sitting somewhere in a hierarchy. Removing nations or people becoming NPC's is not the way to change that. The way to change that is welcome people who RP new ideas and react to them.

3) The nobles/mods as we currently have leave a horrible impression on newcomers. If you're holding some kind of position then there should be the expectation that you're doing something to help the region.

4) Markus is without doubt one of the most creative RPers I've seen. The fact they are just an Orderite is a crime. He's so good at what he writes that I'd let him have Tamora and Samantra

5) There are a lot of people with these secondaries that seem to use them to back up their primary. They might as well just RP one nation.

[Markus]

Let me start by saying that I appreciate a lot the fact that Altona took the time to write everything and provide feedback. I can imagine it was not easy. Feedback like this is important if we are to solve any issue we have as a community.

I full agree with what Altona said and with his proposals including making him a mod. I would add that I have raised similar concerns in the past about the hierarchy in TIO (though never so eloquent as Altona or as detailed)  and was dismissed as imagining things. Now I see in the announcement section that the current hierarchy will be preserved and attempts to disrupt it will be monitored and reviewed. I guess I was not imagining things after all.   

I have tried bumping the changes proposed by Beatrice both on the forum and on Discord and was ignored. There is a pattern of a spike in activity by Beatrice when a crisis happens, proposals are made and then nothing, total silence despite pokes made and questions being ask. I really hope this time some reforms are implemented.   

I am extremely humbled that (some) people like my RP. It’s been extremely fun RPing in TIO and I have learned a lot in this community and from the RPers here. Thank you for the kind words. 

I would also like to add the following:

-   I strongly feel that more feedback should be given to posts. I can’t stress this enough. If you are a new player you literally have the impression that nobody reads your post unless you did something wrong and then it’s short and negative feedback. Now I understand that we cannot comment on all posts or even most of them but at least when it comes to new players some sort of acknowledgement should be given on Discord every couple of posts or so.

-   I encourage people to give feedback as soon as possible. I sometimes feel that some read the posts, do not like something and out of politeness don’t say anything. Since no feedback was given naturally the posting player thinks everything is ok and then continues to do more of the same creating more frustration. When finally feedback is provided it is not criticism it is outright dismissive because of the exasperation accumulated in time. That doesn’t help anyone.

-   I urge players to have more moderation when it comes to claims on anything. I understand players want a piece of something they like from RL. I also understand that if you’ve been here for decades it’s natural to have more claims than new players but please: be more flexible in sharing them especially with new players, use them if you claimed them, do not claim tons of stuff and give some thought if they work for your nation (maybe it did in the past and that’s no longer the case and you can relinquish the claim now?). Again, I understand the attachment but think of a new player starting out, it’s no way on earth he is going to search years of posts to see what pics have been used, what bands, buildings, movies, inventions etc.   

-   There are two TIO communities: a forum based one and a Discord based one. By that I mean there are forum members, lots of them, that hardly talk on Discord and there are quite a few that are active on Discord and have nothing to do or very little with the forum. I am sorry, but I think we need to restate that the forum comes first. That no matter how active you are and sharing ideas on Discord if you haven’t posted on the forum your nation is inactive or does not exist. Titles like nobility (or whatever), mods etc should be given/ earned by forum activity and not Discord one.

PS: I do not understand the criticism against Dave and do not subscribe to them but that is a minor issue.

[Libby]

To some of the newer ones hereyou may not know but me and Dave are a RL couple. I got him into RP as I enjoyed creative writing, and was inspired particularly (no shock coming) by the works of Frank Herbert. It was though Dave who found TIO and dragged me here. I've loved being here and missed the place when the RL of the past nearly two years has messed up things recreationally for me. The TIO I've returned to though as of late is very much how I see Altona describing and I'd support the majority of what she has said.

I will though be contractually obligated to say I think you may have misjudged Dave. There is no way he'd do anything to intentionally screw someone over, mess up their RP or do anything to screw up TIO. The very fact that some of you think he has is probably making him feel gutted. I think Dave should and must remain in his position.

I thought Altona's RP idea sounded ace.

[Markus]

Just wanted to say that I think me calling it "a minor issue" came out wrong. I wanted to say it's another issue. It's not a minor issue to have such criticism of Dave after he put so much effort and dedication. So I apologize for how that came out.

[Altona]

To ensure this is on record. Neither Dave nor Beatrice should go anywhere. If I've caused an issue for Dave in particular I hope we can work on it.

[Beatrice]

I'm working on this and will do what I can to address all concerns.

[Achkaerin]

Turning to Nova's proposal it's fairly solid but I would say the following:

1) Checks and balances are required especially around the GC and the RP Manager roles

2) I would move the NPC Management and Canon management to the RP Manager - the methodology of that body requiring multiple people to sign off makes vital stuff like this more secure and less open to knee jerk reactions.

3) Replace "Granting and removing nobility titles/rights" with "Granting RP rewards"

4) Replace "Creating and managing regular RP events (that may be imposed without player’s consent)" with "Creating and managing regular RP events." - abuse of the consent principle is not acceptable and screws players over. An RP event is intended to encourage players to get involved not force them and there's a huge difference between an oil spill on the high seas and a meltdown at a nuclear power plant in a players nation without that players consent.

[Markus]

I will write here more in length what I have said on Discord so that people who do not read hundreds of messages can still be informed.

One of the problems I have is that Beatrice makes announcements on Discord out of the blue that are very controversial and create a lot of discontent. She then realizes she is wrong and cancels them and regrets making them but the damage is done. Players who read them start resenting and new players might even leave.

Now Ach has said something along the line “What B did is unconstitutional, people should come to me and follow the judicial process”. That doesn’t work in games, players will not take time to do something like this.

So I would like to propose a mechanism where Grand Chancellor must make all announcements of her decisions on the forum first, then wait for a reply by the Head Justice of TIO saying whether that is in the power of the GC(but no more than say 7 RL days) and 24 h after that happens an announcement on Discord is made. That gives B time to rethink her proposal, us the time to actually read it and provide some feedback, Ach the time to review it etc.

Announcements like: nobility scrapped or making appointments, mod promotion or demotions, review people RP etc. 

[Achkaerin]

I will write here more in length what I have said on Discord so that people who do not read hundreds of messages can still be informed.

One of the problems I have is that Beatrice makes announcements on Discord out of the blue that are very controversial and create a lot of discontent. She then realizes she is wrong and cancels them and regrets making them but the damage is done. Players who read them start resenting and new players might even leave.

Now Ach has said something along the line “What B did is unconstitutional, people should come to me and follow the judicial process”. That doesn’t work in games, players will not take time to do something like this.

So I would like to propose a mechanism where Grand Chancellor must make all announcements of her decisions on the forum first, then wait for a reply by the Head Justice of TIO saying whether that is in the power of the GC(but no more than say 7 RL days) and 24 h after that happens an announcement on Discord is made. That gives B time to rethink her proposal, us the time to actually read it and provide some feedback, Ach the time to review it etc.

Announcements like: nobility scrapped or making appointments, mod promotion or demotions, review people RP etc.

Constitutionally this is what is supposed to happen:

(6) The Grand Chancellor must, when seeking to make such legislative changes, publicly post, and announce on Discord, the regional message board and any other relevant areas, the proposed Act in the Conference Hall.

(7) The Act must remain in the Conference Hall, open for public debate or opposition, for a minimum of 72 hours, unless such an Act would amend the Constitution, Criminal Code, Emergency Procedures or Roleplay Rules, where it must be open for at least 96 hours.

( No Act amending the Roleplay Rules proposed initially by the Grand Chancellor may be enacted without the advice and consent of the Roleplay Magistrate, except where the enactment is approved by a referendum of eligible members.

However I do appreciate that a) not everyone is going to read that and b) not everyone is going to react as the system intends.

The problem in this particular instance is that the announcement from Beatrice happens when I'm asleep/not looking at discord and because I haven't got a complaint (i.e. from Dave) I have to assume he's agreed to it, I'd also add that the parts of it I saw on discord when I read it give a certain impression that suggests there was no procedural issue. I'm then told today that Dave apparently didn't agree to it which means Beatrice's announcement is invalid, now if people don't want to complain to me that's fine but I can't do anything if I don't know about it, so when I'm finding out about something people need to point me to the conversation rather than just make a bunch of silly and unhelpful comments.

I would apply Markus's idea and I would apply it across all the office holders (this would address the point I made earlier about checks and balances by the way)

[Markus]

I would apply Markus's idea and I would apply it across all the office holders (this would address the point I made earlier about checks and balances by the way)

Yeah, having it across all offices is much better and fair. It does not single out one position.

[Markus]

You know you are old when you start debating yourself. I am just realizing that if the current constitution doesn't allow that kind of behavior from the GC then my proposal doesn't really help or change much. So maybe we should consider removing some or more of the powers of the GC and maybe give them to a collective body like say Justice Mod, RP Mod and GC. With all three having to agree for a decision to be made.

[Achkaerin]

You know you are old when you start debating yourself. I am just realizing that if the current constitution doesn't allow that kind of behavior from the GC then my proposal doesn't really help or change much. So maybe we should consider removing some or more of the powers of the GC and maybe give them to a collective body like say Justice Mod, RP Mod and GC. With all three having to agree for a decision to be made.

Technically what your proposal does is require the GC to inform the Justice Mod of proposed changes in advance which is hugely helpful because right now that doesn't happen.

[Markus]

Technically what your proposal does is require the GC to inform the Justice Mod of proposed changes in advance which is hugely helpful because right now that doesn't happen.

So basically under the proposed change if you wake up and see a "stange" announcement from the GM on Discord and since you were not notified about it you can immediately say STOP without having to read what happened, guess whether Dave was informed or wait for a complaint,  right? So that cuts the time needed for you to intervene. Do I get it right?

[Achkaerin]

So basically under the proposed change if you wake up and see a "stange" announcement from the GM on Discord and since you were not notified about it you can immediately say STOP without having to read what happened, guess whether Dave was informed or wait for a complaint,  right? So that cuts the time needed for you to intervene. Do I get it right?

Correct.

[Beatrice]

Ach has some things he's cooking up to address concerns, some of which all of us can address together in the present. In the meantime, I'm doing what I can legally to address the Nobility issue, as well as consulting with Ach on what he's working on. Furthermore, on the Discord side of things, there are now options to "warn" people and take other measures to ensure accountability for poor behaviour.

You've been heard, and we're working on it.

[Beatrice]

Your words were becoming more toward the ends of non-antagonistic language and I muted you for 60 seconds as a cool-down. I maintained respect and at no point disrespected you. If each time I moderate this community it's viewed as a personal attack, I don't know what to tell you.

I have no personal issues with you but you were prompted time and again that things were not helpful, especially with present concerns. I took the least powerful moderation action I could.

[Beatrice]

I have shown nothing but patience and a willingness to compromise. It was only after multiple prompts that I muted you that went nowhere, for a mere minute, to which you accused me of abusing my authority and being childish, and telling me to essentially screw myself.

The issues remain not structural but in how we treat each other. You can be a part of the solution, and you're still valued, but this competition of personalities has to stop at some point.

[Cass]

It's been nearly 50 days now with nothing to show for things other than people leaving. Lets drop the pretence of governments and nobles etc. We're a group of people who come online because we like to write. At the moment a significant number in the region have reached the point where they think why bother. We either get gamed, things have to be done in such a way as to favour the "superpowers" of Mundus and no newer nation can have a serious impact on Mundus. This isn't a laws or constitution thing this boils down to two things we can all do now to make it better.

1. We can refuse to accept the narrative that gets pushed and RP our own perceptions. This though is going to see an actual split in the region when people don't want to accept that people don't see them as powerful as they imagine they are.

2. People can stop Mary Sue-ing their nation.

[Kermah]

50 days should have been plenty for the green shoots of change to begin to be seen.

The only people I've seen actually take a move towards building and maintaining positive activity in this place are Dave, Nova, Markus and whoever --- is on Discord.

By now we could have worked out what we're doing with the nobility and I'd have hoped to have seen work done to actively try and change. I get the impression the hope was this would blow up, things wouldn't change and people would drop it or they'd leave and that would solve the problem.

[Achkaerin]

To be honest I quite agree with Kermah, 50 days is way too long for this to take and I hope Beatrice will understand when I say that communication for large swathes of this has been lacking from her end, it honestly shouldn't take days for people in the leadership team to be told what the concerns are and it certainly shouldn't take a thread like this.

Based on everything read here, on Discord and focusing around Altona's five points and accounting for the concerns of other players as well the following is what I suggest

replacing the current Constitution with:

Forum Administrators - There are currently three forum administrators, Beatrice, CGJ and Achkaerin, their responsibilities are:
a) Maintaining and updating the forum
b) Addressing forum issues encountered by members of the forum.
c) Notifying the membership of the region of issues of concern administration wise.

The Chancellery - this comprises the Grand Chancellor, currently Beatrice and the Vice Chancellor, currently CGJ, their responsibilities are:
a) Ensuring the safety and stability of The Independent Order;
b) Conducting Nationstates inter regional diplomacy.
c) Appointing office holders where required;
d) Removing office holders where there exists reasonable grounds to do so:
e) Administering the official chatroom of the region, the NationStates region, and any other official off-forum locations;
f) Advising office holders where requested;
g) Maintaining and updating the Criminal Code and Discord Code of Conduct (with the consultation of the Lord Chief Justice).
h) Inducting (and removing when inactive) members of the Order of the Pen
 
The Roleplay Managers -There are three Roleplay Managers, currently Name, Name and Name, in simple terms this group generally manages the roleplay rules they have the following responsibilities:
a) Welcoming newcomers in the region
b) Mentoring newcomers
c) Amending the Roleplay Rules, (all amendments require a unanimous vote and the agreement of the Roleplay Moderator and where needed the consultation of the cartographer)
d) Maintenance of a Roleplay Guide designed to assist and inform the players of the region of aspects of the Regional roleplay.

Roleplay Moderator -The Roleplay Moderator is the person responsible for ensuring the roleplay rules are followed, this is currently RobertAgira they have the following responsibilities:
a) Welcoming newcomers in the region
b) Mentoring newcomers in the region
c) Managing NPCs
d) Enforcing the Roleplay rules
e) Settling disputes between players
f) Managing the RP canon
g) Taking measures in regards to players that are not complying with the Roleplay rules
h) Making realism rulings.
i) Creating and managing regular RP events (delegating where necessary)
j) Granting RP rewards (with consultation where necessary)

- Any decision to change a historic event the RP Canon shall require a public consultation to take place, to ensure that players have the chance to raise awareness of issues.  A decision to remove a current event or current post from the RP Canon shall require an announcement on the forum with reasoning.

- Decisions regarding the actions of an NPC shall require the consultation of three players who may not be the roleplay managers, the Roleplay Moderator shall abide by the majority view. Consulted players are expected to act considerate of the NPC’s history, policies, relationships etc.

- Decisions regarding the creation, enlarging, reducing, relocating and dissolving of NPC’s and other map decisions shall require consultation with the cartographer.

The Lord Chief Justice - The Lord Chief Justice is the person who ensures that the forum rules are being followed as well as other responsibilities in respect of accountability, currently this is Achkaerin they are responsible for:
a) Advising the Office Holders when asked;
b) Ensuring all Actions by office holders are made in compliance, and are themselves compliant with the Criminal Code and Roleplay Rules;
c) Investigating complaints originating outside the Regional Roleplay and determining a reasonable action.
d) Investigating where it is suspected that any member or institution of the government has acted in error, as defined by law;
e) Hearing appeals from players on matters regarding Regional Roleplay.
f) Enforcing the Criminal Code and Discord Code of Conduct.

- Should the Lord Chief Justice determine that a body (office holder) has acted in error, they may issue an Order to remedy the matter.

Discord Mods - there are four Discord Mods, currently DarthCaedus, NAME, NAME and NAME. They are responsible for:
a) Monitoring the regional discord
b) Enforcing the discord code of conduct.

- Those with Discord Moderation powers operate a three strike system, strike one is a first warning, strike two is a final warning, strike three is a mute. Continuing beyond strike three can see longer mutes, server kicks and server bans employed depending on the nature of the issue.

Order of the Pen - this is a non authority role, it is available to all players and is granted for Roleplay contribution, it is formally awarded by the Grand Chancellor on the request of existing members of this order.

Miscellaneous

- This document and the Criminal Code (2013) shall extend fully to all parts Independent Order, including the forum, NationStates region, official chatroom and any official off-forum locations. Additionally the Forum Terms of Service shall be considered part of this document, as defined by law;

- If any individual holding an office fails to log in to the forum for a period of fourteen days without posting a Leave of Absence they shall be deemed as having vacated their position. Vacancies, including those arising from resignation, shall be filled:
a) Where a deputy or vice exists, by said deputy or vice; or
b) Where no such deputy or vice exists, or if the deputy or vice has also gone inactive, by the usual procedures specified in this document.

This does not make wholesale structural change, what it does is change a long winded, wordy and at times confusing way of expressing how the region works (based on Markus's input ) into what I hope is a more user friendly explanation of the various roles (based on Nova's groundwork), who currently holds them and what their responsibilities are. Ideally a version of this, if adopted, would be sent out as a welcome PM when someone joins.

The introduction of the Roleplay Managers I believe accomplishes Altona's point 1 of "Have no GC involvement in determining what RP is permitted" - the Roleplay Managers essentially operates as the RP Rule makers thus removing that authority from the GC and transferring it to them.

The Order of the Pen inclusion takes on Ffion's suggestion of a way of dealing with the nobility issue highlighted in Altona's point 2. Induction into the nobility has always been a reward for good roleplay as well as several years ago for legislative stuff and service. That it hasn't been updated in years is an oversight and it is no wonder that it has the perception it has. The approach proposed is to remove the inactive members titles (this is what the nobility amendment is about permitting), the remaining nobility would then be transferred to the Order of Pen from where they (not the GC) can admit new members. Think of it like this a player does a good RP, the Order of the Pen thinks "hey that's good." they can go the GC and ask for the player to be inducted, the GC then makes a formal announcement acknowledging the player and the reason. The idea is that by making the group in effect self growing, it becomes what it should have always been a status awarded for roleplay and avoids the neglect it's had in recent years.

Addressing point 3 - "sort the mods out" this is underway, a few days ago Beatrice posted on discord the application form for Discord Mod's, and I expect that when those applications are processed attention will be paid to wanting people in the role who will provide the support network new players need.

on Altona's point 4 - this is largely in terms of the example down to Beatrice to resolve. I will by way of explanation highlight that this isn't the first time a knee jerk of that type has happened, some of us who've been around a while have seen it before and I've been here long enough to have seen it more than once so I'm sort of desensitized to that at this point. To go back to the Mods for a second in providing the support network we will ensure proactivity.

I'm not going to say much on point 5 - I do think RL has played a role over the last couple of years in that player activity levels have dropped and the number of open RP's had reduced so perhaps we slipped into cliques without thinking, I also think that discord banter has proven unhelpful. I have included the RP event management/running under the RP Mod responsibilities.

What I've put up here I believe addresses what it can address in terms of the GC involvement in RP admin, the nobility and the mods. Everything else that's been raised is going to be down to all of us to address ourselves as it concerns player attitude. I will add that if players believe gaming is occurring or has occurred then as the current RP Mod Rob does have the power to remove events from the Canon, I'm not suggesting Rob run around knocking players on the head, but his role has the tools it requires to keep people within the spirit of the RP.

[Achkaerin]

Thank you Achkaerin for such work!

Here are my first comments to feed the discussion:

I suspect the point of “Update regarding rules on map stay / discord activity (nations active on Discord but not at all on the forum are on the map)” will be address by the RP Manager therefore?

In my draft, I had as vision that current cartographer (you) would be RP Moderator with such focus, but from my understanding of your draft it remains a different role? If so, I think it'd be nice to clarify it as its own on the new text.

I fail to see the need of the role of Lord Chief Justice, since IMO such is covered by both RP Moderators and Discord Mod.

At one point we talked equally about some guidelines for newcomers, which would have things like “differentiating the IC RP from your IRL values”, which I think would be a nice plus, of course wouldn't be a new rule book since those are just guidelines, however could be refered to when discussing mostly on the Discord and things get out of hands without necessarily violating rules.

From the current draft, Chancellery appoints all position: question; who appoints the Chancellery, and how to question appointment?
Same question regarding the future eventual update of this text?
Since so far seems only can complain and have to get a massive crisis like the one we have for things to move.
For the text update, I propose something as simple as this “Present document may evolve following a proposition of change by any player, that shall be followed by a debate in the appropriate section on the forum for a minimum of seven (7) days and through a two (2) days vote requiring a simple majority for the proposition to be accepted.”, and we may have the Lord Justice handle the proceeding as Speaker then, would be a clear purpose IMO.

Also, I'd have maybe gotten a special role for CGJ since he's our super-IT guy, since it's not part of the Chancellery duties.

Equally, I'd have added as prerequisite to the text regarding the various positions:
“Act objectively and impartially, and at no point may seek to advantage their own roleplay position
Seek to take all reasonable steps to resolve a conflict both privately and publicly
Publish records of any formal rulings they make in the proper forum regarding decisions that are relevant to their duties”

For the Chancellery “h) Inducting (and removing when inactive) members of the Order of the Pen”, since it's stated down, I'd have precised “at the demand of its members or following inactivity”.

For the RP Manager “c) Amending the Roleplay Rules, (all amendments require a unanimous vote and the agreement of the Roleplay Moderator and where needed the consultation of the cartographer)” I'd have removed everything that is in ( ), since there are already 3 people in office following what's planned and would ask tons of talk, and just precising “unanimous agreement from RP moderators” or something like this, and of course they're going to talk.

On the cartographer - that stays the same as it is - it's defined under the RP rules, it can be included if needed for greater clarity. How it works at the moment is that I as Cartographer do the map updates, decide which nations get removed and so on. I also suggest rule changes on map things to the RP Mod, under this proposal the RP Mod would be replaced by the RP Manager in that instance.

LCJ - included and needed because RP conduct and forum behaviour are not one and the same thing, take the example of Banaria his RP stuff was dealt with by Dave (as the RP Mod) however his OOC conduct in terms of harassment and cyber stalking is outside the RP Mods area to enforce, that's where the LCJ comes in. If it helps think of the LCJ as more of the team lead of the Discord Mods, except the LCJ also monitors the forum conduct, so non RP threads.

Questioning other office holders is perhaps another reason the LCJ being around is a good idea, so we can maybe include a simple point on that.

CGJ is the holder of the root admin account which is covered under forum administrators, that can perhaps be made clearer

the guidance suggestion would probably work better inside the welcome PM version of this that I mentioned.

The prerequisite text can be included, as can the amendment point - I'm actually surprised I didn't do that (I guess I shouldn't write stuff at 3am)

[RobertAgira]

Might I suggest with exception on perhaps GC snd VGC  no ones names appear in the text.  If I have my way  and Dsve ever does return I'd love to hand him the RP Mod job back.

[Achkaerin]

Might I suggest with exception on perhaps GC snd VGC  no ones names appear in the text.  If I have my way  and Dsve ever does return I'd love to hand him the RP Mod job back.

Will make that adjustment.